Opinions on ExoTerra Calcium+D3 and ExoTerra Multivitamin?
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You need to rotate supplements. And definitely buy new supplements. If kept in a cool area and sealed I assume 6 months is the maximum. I always throw out older supplements or dump them into another sealed container for other used if needed. A good method is if another fellow frog member lives close you can split the supplements and it saves a bunch.
Repashy are awesome products. I currently use "Calcium plus, LoD, and Vitamin. I also rotate with Repcal.
Could you cite your source please? What is the actual difference between the two products?
ExoTerra Multi Vitamins
Exo Terra : Multi Vitamin / Multi Vitamin Powder Supplement
Calcium + D3
Exo Terra : Calcium + D3 / Calcium + D3 Powder Supplement
I've kept snakes for over a decade so I'm new to understanding why Repashy is or has become so popular. I'm having trouble understanding the difference with researching.
And I do rotate. Thanks.
Steve -
I hope this can be cleared up. If you're using Calcium Plus, why would LoD be needed? Both supply calcium as I'm reading, and why Repcal? I understand MBD is to be avoided which is why I posted. But why the supplementation/rotation of all three of those products that supply calcium? That makes no sense to me.
Now I'm really confused.
I hope this can be cleared up. If you're using Calcium Plus, why would LoD be needed? Both supply calcium as I'm reading, and why Repcal? I understand MBD is to be avoided which is why I posted. But why the supplementation/rotation of all three of those products that supply calcium? That makes no sense to me. 
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Have you read this? http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/44182-repashy-supplements.html A lot of people with frogs that are experiencing troubles breeding, have reported success when switching to Repashy. It seems that most of the well known names in the hobby/business are switching to Repashy. It is ground finer and sticks better.
Allan works with experienced hobbiest to get their input on his products, and changes his formulations when sufficient proof is given him that a change would be beneficial. He is the ONLY vitamin manufacturer that I have ever seen post, ask for feedback, or engage in any sort of conversation about what we, as hobbyists, would like to see from his products.
I will continue to use Repashy products, myself. Hope it helps.
Allan works with experienced hobbiest to get their input on his products, and changes his formulations when sufficient proof is given him that a change would be beneficial. He is the ONLY vitamin manufacturer that I have ever seen post, ask for feedback, or engage in any sort of conversation about what we, as hobbyists, would like to see from his products.
I will continue to use Repashy products, myself. Hope it helps.
The reason some people rotate supplements is because the only third party analysis of the supplements available at that time showed deficiencies not only between what was advertised on the label but significant differences between batches. The idea on using several supplements is because it is unlikely that all would have the same lack. This study doesn't include some of the later supplements like the Repashy Brand.
The current recommendation coming out of the zoo and vet community is that using a supplment that contains beta carotene as the source of vitamin A is resulting in frogs that are deficient in vitamin A which can cause problems ranging from the immune system to fertility and development of tadpoles and metamorphs.
At this time, only the Repashy products contain the widest variety of carotenoids for the frogs but it also contains a source of vitamin A in the form of retinoids.
The suggestion for replacing the supplements after six months is that is the approximate time when degredation of the vitamins starts to occur. If you keep your supplements in the same area with your animals, the breakdown can occur much more quickly.
Ed
The current recommendation coming out of the zoo and vet community is that using a supplment that contains beta carotene as the source of vitamin A is resulting in frogs that are deficient in vitamin A which can cause problems ranging from the immune system to fertility and development of tadpoles and metamorphs.
At this time, only the Repashy products contain the widest variety of carotenoids for the frogs but it also contains a source of vitamin A in the form of retinoids.
The suggestion for replacing the supplements after six months is that is the approximate time when degredation of the vitamins starts to occur. If you keep your supplements in the same area with your animals, the breakdown can occur much more quickly.
Ed
Thanks for the excellent information Ed, and Doug, answering my questions about rotation. The theory is interesting to me, and does make sense. I definitely misunderstood. I see now why the Repashy brand is favored and I didn't realize Allen Repashy posted on this site until just now.
Steve thank you for your info too.
Steve thank you for your info too.
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Repashy is just better. I was using herpti-vite. I had two pairs of azureus breeding, but was only getting a hatch rate of about 50% with my clutches. Switched repashy vitamins and now I'm getting about 95% hatch rate. And my frogs are laying larger clutches (7-10 eggs) than they were on the other supplements (about 5 eggs per clutch before the switch).
Very, very interesting results with Repashy.
I am in the process of ordering.
I have Calcium Plus in my cart. Based on experiences, should I also purchase Supervite and LoD? I'm very new to the Repashy line. Thank you all for helping me.
Jessica
I am in the process of ordering.
I have Calcium Plus in my cart. Based on experiences, should I also purchase Supervite and LoD? I'm very new to the Repashy line. Thank you all for helping me.
Jessica
The real answer to this is maybe.. If the supplements come out of the fridge into a humid atmosphere condensation of water into the supplements will reduce how well they stick as well as increase the rate of decomposition. You have to have some method to prevent the condensation. As for how long this extends the shelflife, it is unknown... considering the cost of everything else that goes into keeping the frogs, and the potential downside if there is a problem with the supplements, it really isn't worth the minimal potential savings.I believe I had read somewhere in this forum that supplements can be kept in the fridge to extend life?(not sure if meant as to avoid premature breakdown before the six months or to last longer than six months) Can u refute or confirm this please?
Ed
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And so I will chime in with adding silica packs with your animal vitamins. They are the packets that say DO NOT EAT or DESSICANT in your store-bought pill bottles. They absorb excess moisture to potentially lessen the effects of water spoiling the vitamins.
I would never store my supplements in a room that was moist---cool and dry is the way to go. Also, if storing them in the fridge, it might be better to get the powder out into the dusting cup while the packet is still in the fridge. This will serve to prevent the condensation from occurring as much as it would with complete removal from the fridge to open air.
This will involve leaving the fridge door open with the supplements still inside. It will cost you more in electricity over the long run.
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My recommendation for the best way to guarantee freshness takes just a little bit of extra time and effort, but can significantly make a difference. As mentioned in this thread already, it is not just temperature, but oxygen exposure AND humidity that all combine to oxidize nutrients.
I will make a list from good to best and give my personal opinions. (Based on my products and my results from storing stuff in different ways and sending to the lab for analysis at different time increments)
One MAJOR comment I would like to make is that all Vitamins do not degrade equally, so you are not just loosing potency, you are screwing up your important vitamin ratios, such as those between the fat soluble vitamins.
This will vary from supplement to supplement based on the type of each vitamin used.... spray dried, micro encapsulated, chemical form..... there are a LOT of variables. Just getting to know how MY formulas react has been like getting to know a person over time.... I can't guess about anyone elses, so these comments below will be based on my ingredients.
For ME, (and probably most others) Vitamin E is the first to go, and vitamin A is the next to go.....
For example..... I often look at the extrusion stability reports of a particular vitamin form to estimate how it will hold up. Extrusion uses a LOT of heat in the process, so if you are making extruded foods, you have to formulate with levels that you would not feed at because of degredation.....
For example, my Vitamin A post extrusion is rated at about 65-70%... that means if I make a powder with 10,000 iu Vitamin A, after it is extruded, it will only be about 6,500 vitamin A..... And the Vitamin D3, post extrusion is about 95%..... so if we start with a 10:1 ration in our formula, we are going to end up with a 7:1 ratio......
Then over time, the Vitamin A breaks down 30% faster than the D3 and after a year, we could have a 1:1 vitamin A to D ratio
Then, besides heat, oxygen exposure and humidity can have different effects on how the ratios end up over time because for example, at the same temperature, but in a wet environment.... the Vitamin D might be less stable than the A.....
The difference between forms of vitamin C, can mean total oxidation in a matter of weeks vs. up to a year...
So the important thing is to do whatever you can to keep stability across all of these variables.
1. Using a package in a herp room where the ambient temperature is 80 degrees like you would find in a room full of diurnal lizards such as bearded dragons or uromastyx,....
In these conditions, you have heat, oxygen, and some humidity all at work.... I would say that after 3 months on a shelf in a herp room..... especially when half the rooms I visit have the supplement sitting on top of a cage with a basking light and the surface temp of the cage it is on is often well over a hundred degrees.....
2. An amphibian room....... less heat, but more humidity...... 3-6 months....
3. Non herp room..... opened a couple times a week..... 6-12 months.
4. Refrigerated and used regularly (taken in and out of refrigerator to use.....
and used every day... 6-12 months.
5. Unopened at normal room temps....... 12-18 months......
6. Unopened and kept in fridge 18-24 months.
Don't forget, that you never really know how old it is before YOU GET IT!
So how do we use the stuff and keep it the freshest?
Easy, Keep your bulk container in the fridge and just quickly take out what is going to last you about a month. This will avoid the condensation you get when you go from the fridge to the herp room and back all the time.
Just use an old container to keep in your room or find a small suitable container...
Another note, One reason I went with the bags in the beginning is that when you close it you can get out nearly all the air..... while in a jar, the less product, the more air....Oxygen absorbers will make a difference, but they are really designed for long term sealed use as just opening a jar for ten minutes is enough to kill the absorber..... so you will need a LOT of them, or be busy recharging them in the microwave.....
I need to get out of the house.... I hope some of this makes sense......
Allen
I will make a list from good to best and give my personal opinions. (Based on my products and my results from storing stuff in different ways and sending to the lab for analysis at different time increments)
One MAJOR comment I would like to make is that all Vitamins do not degrade equally, so you are not just loosing potency, you are screwing up your important vitamin ratios, such as those between the fat soluble vitamins.
This will vary from supplement to supplement based on the type of each vitamin used.... spray dried, micro encapsulated, chemical form..... there are a LOT of variables. Just getting to know how MY formulas react has been like getting to know a person over time.... I can't guess about anyone elses, so these comments below will be based on my ingredients.
For ME, (and probably most others) Vitamin E is the first to go, and vitamin A is the next to go.....
For example..... I often look at the extrusion stability reports of a particular vitamin form to estimate how it will hold up. Extrusion uses a LOT of heat in the process, so if you are making extruded foods, you have to formulate with levels that you would not feed at because of degredation.....
For example, my Vitamin A post extrusion is rated at about 65-70%... that means if I make a powder with 10,000 iu Vitamin A, after it is extruded, it will only be about 6,500 vitamin A..... And the Vitamin D3, post extrusion is about 95%..... so if we start with a 10:1 ration in our formula, we are going to end up with a 7:1 ratio......
Then over time, the Vitamin A breaks down 30% faster than the D3 and after a year, we could have a 1:1 vitamin A to D ratio
Then, besides heat, oxygen exposure and humidity can have different effects on how the ratios end up over time because for example, at the same temperature, but in a wet environment.... the Vitamin D might be less stable than the A.....
The difference between forms of vitamin C, can mean total oxidation in a matter of weeks vs. up to a year...
So the important thing is to do whatever you can to keep stability across all of these variables.
1. Using a package in a herp room where the ambient temperature is 80 degrees like you would find in a room full of diurnal lizards such as bearded dragons or uromastyx,....
In these conditions, you have heat, oxygen, and some humidity all at work.... I would say that after 3 months on a shelf in a herp room..... especially when half the rooms I visit have the supplement sitting on top of a cage with a basking light and the surface temp of the cage it is on is often well over a hundred degrees.....
2. An amphibian room....... less heat, but more humidity...... 3-6 months....
3. Non herp room..... opened a couple times a week..... 6-12 months.
4. Refrigerated and used regularly (taken in and out of refrigerator to use.....
and used every day... 6-12 months.
5. Unopened at normal room temps....... 12-18 months......
6. Unopened and kept in fridge 18-24 months.
Don't forget, that you never really know how old it is before YOU GET IT!
So how do we use the stuff and keep it the freshest?
Easy, Keep your bulk container in the fridge and just quickly take out what is going to last you about a month. This will avoid the condensation you get when you go from the fridge to the herp room and back all the time.
Just use an old container to keep in your room or find a small suitable container...
Another note, One reason I went with the bags in the beginning is that when you close it you can get out nearly all the air..... while in a jar, the less product, the more air....Oxygen absorbers will make a difference, but they are really designed for long term sealed use as just opening a jar for ten minutes is enough to kill the absorber..... so you will need a LOT of them, or be busy recharging them in the microwave.....
I need to get out of the house.... I hope some of this makes sense......
Allen
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