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Are they talking about medium fortification or dusting?
According to the study, the only difference between the control group and study group was the additions to the fly media. Both groups were dusted the same with Repashy Calcium plus and additional Vit A every 3 months.
What the study did not try to confirm was whether additional carotenoid dusting would have made similar improvements.
The flies nutritive value definitely appears to have improved, but could the same effect have been shown with additional dusting is unknown.
Seems to support the argument for feeding a variety of different feeder insects.
 

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Seems to support the argument for feeding a variety of different feeder insects.
Here's a section of the paper on that:

The natural diet of O. pumilio consists primarily of ants and mites [Toft, 1995], with the latter the more carotenoid‐rich food source [Olson, 2006]. As a replacement for the natural diet, carotenoid supplemented fruit flies were superior to unsupplemented ones in our captive colony.
Perhaps further highlighting the importance of prey item diet
breadth, we found that wild insects attracted to fruit
(primarily Drosophila spp.) allowed for successful reproduction by captive O. pumilio held outdoors at Bocas del Toro (unpublished data). Whether carotenoid supplementation addressed a vitamin A deficiency in this ex situ population and whether that deficiency limited reproductive success remain unclear.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 · (Edited)
My interpretation is that when we consider the fact that the frogs should have been receiving more than ample Preformed Vitamin A (Retinol) from Calcium Plus AND a topical treatment, that the carotenoids are contributing other nutrients.

Meaning no amount of Retinol supplement can replace the carotenoids because they are contributing different things. We should consider carotenoids as their own group of "vitamins" that can't be replaced by anything else. These compounds are really just starting to be studied and understood.

After reading this, I have definitely changed my thoughts about the value of including significant amounts of carotenoids in the fly media. Superfly has SuperPig in it, but in low levels for two reasons. First, I was under the impression that it wasn't as important as this paper claims, and secondly, Superfly is already one of the most expensive fly medias on the market and adding a lot of superpig would just make most people think it was too expensive to even try.

If there was enough demand, I could make a Superfly + version, but I don't think it is that difficult to just add 5% superpig to the superfly for those who decide to follow this lead.. (it does seem to make a good argument for doing so) The other option of course is to dust more with carotenoids, but I am not so sure that would be the best approach because you would be "cutting" the other nutrients you are dusting with. I also think it is easier to load the media than dust with carotenoids because of the particle size issues and actual stick to drosophila of these ingredients.

Allen
 

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If there was enough demand, I could make a Superfly + version, but I don't think it is that difficult to just add 5% superpig to the superfly for those who decide to follow this lead.. (it does seem to make a good argument for doing so)
I believe a "SuperFlyingPig" version would be ideal. I'm sure many people would switch from Calcium + to the new and improved version if the difference in price is not exorbitant.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
I believe a "SuperFlyingPig" version would be ideal. I'm sure many people would switch from Calcium + to the new and improved version if the difference in price is not exorbitant.
Hmm.... I don't understand what you are saying, as modifying Superfly has has nothing to do with Calcium Plus formulation or usage.
 

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I will be adding at least 5% SuperPig to to the Repashy Bug Burger and Community Plus. I put Bug Burger in all my Oophaga enclosures and grow out
tanks, creating feeding stations. The flies congregate and feed on the Bug Burger.

Thanks,
Lane, aka, SilverLynx
 

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This is pretty cool, we were just discussing Vitamin Supplementation in another thread & someone brought up the possibility of adding CoEnzymes/Vitamins to insects diet in order to create more nutritious feeders.. Its great that you posted this right now.. You are what you eat I guess... I wonder if there are any other ways to make flies more nutritious..?
 

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So carotenoids can be passed on to the frogs thru enhanced media and not just thru what is found in the ff's eyes. Wasn't there talk about "gutloading" or further enhancing the flies nutritive value by additions to the medium? Didn't someone say it couldn't be done?
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
So carotenoids can be passed on to the frogs thru enhanced media and not just thru what is found in the ff's eyes. Wasn't there talk about "gutloading" or further enhancing the flies nutritive value by additions to the medium? Didn't someone say it couldn't be done?
I think Ed presented some publications that claimed that carotenoids were not stored by the flies...... but this seems to contradict this...... or some kind of "X" factor at least is involved, meaning the flys are converting the carotenoids into "something else" that has benefits......
 

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My interpretation is that when we consider the fact that the frogs should have been receiving more than ample Preformed Vitamin A (Retinol) from Calcium Plus AND a topical treatment, that the carotenoids are contributing other nutrients.

Meaning no amount of Retinol supplement can replace the carotenoids because they are contributing different things. We should consider carotenoids as their own group of "vitamins" that can't be replaced by anything else. These compounds are really just starting to be studied and understood.

After reading this, I have definitely changed my thoughts about the value of including significant amounts of carotenoids in the fly media. Superfly has SuperPig in it, but in low levels for two reasons. First, I was under the impression that it wasn't as important as this paper claims, and secondly, Superfly is already one of the most expensive fly medias on the market and adding a lot of superpig would just make most people think it was too expensive to even try.

If there was enough demand, I could make a Superfly + version, but I don't think it is that difficult to just add 5% superpig to the superfly for those who decide to follow this lead.. (it does seem to make a good argument for doing so) The other option of course is to dust more with carotenoids, but I am not so sure that would be the best approach because you would be "cutting" the other nutrients you are dusting with. I also think it is easier to load the media than dust with carotenoids because of the particle size issues and actual stick to drosophila of these ingredients.

Allen
Thank you Allen! I will be purchasing SuperPig today. Your clarification opens up two more questions.

1) If one owns SuperFly media, how much SuperPig should be added to the media to make an ideal media (SuperFly+) in regards to carotenoids?

2) If one owns fly media with out any supplements, how much SuperPig should be added to the media to make an ideal media in regards to carotenoids?
 

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No offense to Allen, but I've been having the suspicion that the Repashy line has been deficient in vitamin A or carotenoids (or both?) for some time. (As far as the formulation relates to dart frogs)

This suspicion first arose when I noticed that people on the boards would often supplement Vitamin A Plus in addition to Calcium Plus, in order to get better breeding/eggs/tadpoles. Also, I've read that some people report that even though they've been dusting their frogs' food with Repashy Calcium Plus, some people's frogs still get short tongue syndrome, which is indicative of vitamin A deficiency.

The paper states that the primary diet of pumilio (and I think this also holds true for other dart frogs) is ants and mites -- and that these are a "carotenoid‐rich food source" (and here is the cited literature for that claim). Although while looking through the paper, the table that compares carotenoid content wasn't super clear on the claim that drosophila contains significantly less carotenoids than either ants or mites. Maybe someone else could take a look at the paper?

Anyway, my point is that I feel that the Repashy line would be much more complete for dart frogs if the vitamin A and/or carotenoid was increased.
 

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I don't think the paper deals w/ vit. A or the conversion of carotenoids to vit. A. It just says that more carotenoids has an added benefit.

As far as I've seen I've never used a Vit. A supplement and have had a very hi success rate and very hi egg production rate have not had short tongue syndrome or spindly or other deformations at any significant rate.


No offense to Allen, but I've been having the suspicion that the Repashy line has been deficient in vitamin A or carotenoids (or both?) for some time. (As far as the formulation relates to dart frogs)

This suspicion first arose when I noticed that people on the boards would often supplement Vitamin A Plus in addition to Calcium Plus, in order to get better breeding/eggs/tadpoles. Also, I've read that some people report that even though they've been dusting their frogs' food with Repashy Calcium Plus, some people's frogs still get short tongue syndrome, which is indicative of vitamin A deficiency.

The paper states that the primary diet of pumilio (and I think this also holds true for other dart frogs) is ants and mites -- and that these are a "carotenoid‐rich food source" (and here is the cited literature for that claim). Although while looking through the paper, the table that compares carotenoid content wasn't super clear on the claim that drosophila contains significantly less carotenoids than either ants or mites. Maybe someone else could take a look at the paper?

Anyway, my point is that I feel that the Repashy line would be much more complete for dart frogs if the vitamin A and/or carotenoid was increased.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 · (Edited)
No offense to Allen, but I've been having the suspicion that the Repashy line has been deficient in vitamin A or carotenoids (or both?) for some time. (As far as the formulation relates to dart frogs)

This suspicion first arose when I noticed that people on the boards would often supplement Vitamin A Plus in addition to Calcium Plus, in order to get better breeding/eggs/tadpoles. Also, I've read that some people report that even though they've been dusting their frogs' food with Repashy Calcium Plus, some people's frogs still get short tongue syndrome, which is indicative of vitamin A deficiency.

The paper states that the primary diet of pumilio (and I think this also holds true for other dart frogs) is ants and mites -- and that these are a "carotenoid‐rich food source" (and here is the cited literature for that claim). Although while looking through the paper, the table that compares carotenoid content wasn't super clear on the claim that drosophila contains significantly less carotenoids than either ants or mites. Maybe someone else could take a look at the paper?

Anyway, my point is that I feel that the Repashy line would be much more complete for dart frogs if the vitamin A and/or carotenoid was increased.
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

I have moderate levels of vitamin A in the Calcium Plus, I already have a Calcium Plus HyD that has twice the levels of vitamin A as the regular version and one that has half the levels because many people "think" the regular calcium plus has too much.

My Calcium Plus HyD is recommended for therapeutic use and use on basking species and true carnivores that are kept with little UVB .... and I do NOT think Dendrobates fall into this category or have this kind of requirement, so I will NOT recommend the Calcium Plus HYD for regular use with Dendrobatids. If you don't agree, then you, of course, are free to use my products however you want, or use other products.


I also make a Vitamin A Plus, which is a vitamin A only product for treating deficiency..... or periodic use with healthy animals. I think you should re read the posts about using Vitamin A Plus or another supplemental Retinol product because they are usually associated with animals that have had a history of deficiency... it that case, Calcium Plus can take quite some time to bring back deficient animals..... thus the additional supplementation.

If you don't agree, then you, of course, are free to use my products however you want, or use other products that you think might work better. Do you really expect STS to completely disappear from every frog in every situation with all the variables out there... from varied usage levels, to using expired products..... to genetics..... to lack of real scientific research with multiple instances of the same cause and effect?



Allen
 

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I think you should re read the posts about using Vitamin A Plus or another supplemental Retinol product because they are usually associated with animals that have had a history of deficiency... it that case, Calcium Plus can take quite some time to bring back deficient animals..... thus the additional supplementation.
Hmmm I guess I wasn't really taking animals with a history of deficiency into account, which would make sense why just calcium plus doesn't correct the problem.

But still, if you think the findings of the paper are important enough to consider adding more carotenoids to the fly media, why not the dusting supplement?
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
Hmmm I guess I wasn't really taking animals with a history of deficiency into account, which would make sense why just calcium plus doesn't correct the problem.
Yeah, it is an important factor and I have acknowledged that if an animal is deficient, that it can take many months for Calcium Plus to reverse the issue. But increasing the amount of A in calcium plus is not the answer, because then over the long term, we could have too much. This is the exact reason I decided to pull the trigger and put out the "Vitamin A Plus" as a product....

But still, if you think the findings of the paper are important enough to consider adding more carotenoids to the fly media, why not the dusting supplement?
As I said in prior posts...... it is difficult to get a good stick when dusting with carotenoids because of the particle sizes, and if we are dusting with more carotenoids, then we have to be using less Calcium Plus..... there is always a give and take if you are already dusting at every feeding.

Adding it to the media solves this issue and any potential factors that could be involved dealing with the metabolism of the flies creating unique compuounds using the carotenoids that we aren't aware of..... but have value.

All theory really..
 

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I'm a bit frustrated that the authors didn't decide to like, grind up the two FF groups and analyze the contents to see what the actual difference inside the flies was. And --as I believe someone else mentioned-- that they didn't also try just adding more carotenoids to the dusting supplement to compare with adding it to the media.
 

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I'm a bit frustrated that the authors didn't decide to like, grind up the two FF groups and analyze the contents to see what the actual difference inside the flies was. And --as I believe someone else mentioned-- that they didn't also try just adding more carotenoids to the dusting supplement to compare with adding it to the media.
That wasn't the purpose of the study and would take a new experiment to get the results. I'm not sure that would even be possible...

I'm just glad they did this study. It's not everyday we get this kind of info! It's groundbreaking really, don't you think?

Glass half empty kinda guy? :rolleyes:
 

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My interpretation is that when we consider the fact that the frogs should have been receiving more than ample Preformed Vitamin A (Retinol) from Calcium Plus AND a topical treatment, that the carotenoids are contributing other nutrients.

Meaning no amount of Retinol supplement can replace the carotenoids because they are contributing different things. We should consider carotenoids as their own group of "vitamins" that can't be replaced by anything else. These compounds are really just starting to be studied and understood.

After reading this, I have definitely changed my thoughts about the value of including significant amounts of carotenoids in the fly media. Superfly has SuperPig in it, but in low levels for two reasons. First, I was under the impression that it wasn't as important as this paper claims, and secondly, Superfly is already one of the most expensive fly medias on the market and adding a lot of superpig would just make most people think it was too expensive to even try.

If there was enough demand, I could make a Superfly + version, but I don't think it is that difficult to just add 5% superpig to the superfly for those who decide to follow this lead.. (it does seem to make a good argument for doing so) The other option of course is to dust more with carotenoids, but I am not so sure that would be the best approach because you would be "cutting" the other nutrients you are dusting with. I also think it is easier to load the media than dust with carotenoids because of the particle size issues and actual stick to drosophila of these ingredients.

Allen
With the price of a 4oz bag of Superpig I don't think it would be to expensive to just get a second for the media....Based on the reading and posts here I will start adding it to my superfly.....Not to mention I hate throwing out amounts of suppliments seems a good way to make sure it all gets used up before the 6th month mark.

sent from my Galaxy S lll
 
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