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QUESTION: Do you think I should ask for Panacur to treat them without running a fecal before? I saw some people use it preventively for their frogs or if they are in danger of dying and suspect parasites.
Should I also scrap the whole tank even if I started a dewormer treatment for them (highly diluted Ivermectin, administrated on day one, day 14 and day 28. For now only day one has been done, the next day the now bloated frog got bullied and about two days after it was bloated)?
You're already shotgunning with Ivermectin. It isn't clear why another anthelmintic would be warranted. I don't know about deworming frogs, but in a range of other animals the only advantage Panacur has over Ivermectin is safety.

As for scrapping the tank, you've got a month before you'll know if the Ivermectin helps -- and you may have a frog to do a necropsy on in the meantime -- so personally I'd wait for more information. You'd have to wait until the frogs are all clear to put them back into the display viv, anyway, and who knows how long that will be.
 
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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
You're already shotgunning with Ivermectin. It isn't clear why another anthelmintic would be warranted. I don't know about deworming frogs, but in a range of other animals the only advantage Panacur has over Ivermectin is safety.

As for scrapping the tank, you've got a month before you'll know if the Ivermectin helps -- and you may have a frog to do a necropsy on in the meantime -- so personally I'd wait for more information. You'd have to wait until the frogs are all clear to put them back into the display viv, anyway, and who knows how long that will be.
I didn't see your reply, sorry!
I went to the vet, ran a fecal and turns out they are indeed infested with one type of parasite for which ivermectin is very efficient but instead of waiting 14 days I'll do it every 7 days for a months (more if it doesn't get better). She gave also flagyl to give as a 30mn bath every week, and isotonic solution to replace the water. She also gave me a syringe to puncture the bloated frog as she might bloat again (the vet punctured it and there was so much liquid inside of her limbs!). And she said to scrap the tank while doing the medication, and that if it doesn't stress out the frogs too much, that I should do it everyweek for a month. She also gave Emeraid IC Carnivore - intensive care nutrition for debiliated carnovres and insectivores - which also works on amphibians and that should help them get fatter as they won't eat much and are getting skinnier. But it's a powder that needs to be mixed with water and they either lick it or you force it into their mouth but I'm not sure I can do that? I'm not sure what other solution i have to feed frogs that won't eat and avoid them getting too thin...
 
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You cant just put that in the frogs mouth. They will not swallow it down like a spoonful of nutrition. The frog needs it delivered into the stomach (not very far back, and easy to find but clearing the mouth and glottis)
A dosing needle, piece of catheter, cannula, or other delivery tool with syringe is needed.
 

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If I were you, i would see if they are interested in some FF maggots. I always rinse them in a miso strainer. No reason to include fetid media that may interfere with fey acceptance.

They also show up better and are easier to manipulate if you 'wipe' the maggot mound on a small disc of zucchini, etc. Cantaloupe is good too.

Its very important to keep the electrolyte solution fresh. Get a turkey baster for quick, unobtrusive replacements.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 · (Edited)
If I were you, i would see if they are interested in some FF maggots. I always rinse them in a miso strainer. No reason to include fetid media that may interfere with fey acceptance.

They also show up better and are easier to manipulate if you 'wipe' the maggot mound on a small disc of zucchini, etc. Cantaloupe is good too.

Its very important to keep the electrolyte solution fresh. Get a turkey baster for quick, unobtrusive replacements.
I thought about the FF maggots, I didn't know that we could clean them or wipe them on zucchinis! There's so much I'm learning :eek:😂 I'll try that tonight, and if the bloated one still doesn't want to eat anything, I'll try to force her to it even if I really don't feel confident in force feeding a tiny frog that's already stressed by her illness.
I also wondered if dusting flies with the Emeraid powder instead of mixing it with water could work?

I will have the Ringers ready for tomorrow evening, let's hope it'll do her good to spend the 24h on her own in it (as per the vet's recommendations).
 

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You can use other things, but a little disc of hard veg or fruit is easy duplicate and quite frankly it sounds like your little guys have enough microbial life going on.

Keeping things neat, mitigated.

Good luck and know that you are top shelf. Im keeping you and your frogs in my prayers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
You can use other things, but a little disc of hard veg or fruit is easy duplicate and quite frankly it sounds like your little guys have enough microbial life going on.

Keeping things neat, mitigated.

Good luck and know that you are top shelf. Im keeping you and your frogs in my prayers.
Thanks a lot for your help 🙏 I'll keep you posted on the situation and will follow all your precious advices!
 

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You are very kind. A tea ball strainer might be easier to find. Its the same grade and will work for hydei and advanced mel larvs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
How are they doing?
Thanks for asking!

The two very sick ones were not eating anymore, so I had to force feed them. It wasn't easy but not impossible and yes they were stressed but not to the point of having a stroke. Finding the right amount was tough though, I gave too much on the first attempt so they were a bit "dizzy" (not moving much, hiding), the next times I gave smaller amounts. The smaller frog (Mercure) swallowed everything but the bloated one (Belladone) usually takes more time to swallow.
The bloated one is almost back to normal in terms of bloating (I believe the Ringer worked well combined with the Flagyl and Ivermectin baths) but isn't moving much and I still need to force feed it. However after 2 days of force feeding Mercure, we tried giving it fruit flies and it seems it's hunting, not heavily but still, so I'll keep on checking its progress and see if it can gain weight on its own otherwise I'll resume with the critical care.

I also scrapped the two tanks and the vet suggested I do this every week (if it doesn't stress the frogs too much) for a month so we're sure we kill every larva, eggs, and adults parasites (strongyloides). I've build temporary habitats with wet paper, bleached plants (5% bleach, 95% water for 5 minutes), baked leaves and newly bought wood so they don't fight and get stressed by an much more empty tank. For now it works, I doubt they like it very much but they hunt and eat, and roam in the tank, so until we're done with the treatment we'll keep on doing this. And in a month, if they don't have parasites anymore, we'll rebuild the natural tank with plants etc. This time I'm not buying xaxim, it's super expensive and it broke my heart to have to throw it away. 😂 If you guys know any other natural material I could use to replace xaxim for the background of the tank, let me know!

300198


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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Hi there, I think one of the frogs is dead but I'm not sure... 😔

The one that used to be bloated (Belladone) was better at some point, moving around and even hunting food. But the other frog in quarantine with it did not like the fact its sibling was now eating the same food and wrestled it. It caused a lot of stress to the newly recovered frog and she stopped eating and moving once again. We went back to force feeding and we moved it to its own tank.
My bf gave them their weekly Ivermectin bath (supposed to last one hour), but after 40mn that frog suddenly started laying on its back and somewhat convulsing. He saved it, put it back in its terra but it wouldn't move much nor eat. Since the bath, two other frogs started being stressed and inactive (one that was looking very healthy a becoming quite fat and the other one is the one that was in the quarantine tank and that wrestled the weak one). One is not hunting but eating if any ff is coming near, the other one is just not eating.
Yesterday we gave them ringer bath, hoping it would help. We saw Belladone covered is some gooey transparent matter, I realized it was shed skin the frog did not eat. I don't know if it can be harmful if left like this but when i tried take a bit off its arm it moved and I thought "okay, it's going to stress the frog even more so just don't do anything yet". We put them back in their tanks and waited until this morning to check on them. Belladone had moved and was standing better than before so I thought "progress!", then I saw the one in the first quarantine tank moving around to hid in different places and I was like "it's moving!" and then the fat one that doesn't move but still eats when ff come near it hadn't move at all. I really thought it was just stress from the treatments and being away the whole day would let them relax especially now that they all have their own quarantine tanks. But tonight it seems Belladone is dead. It's not rigid (it's more of the contrary), it was sitting properly, but it's not moving, not reacting at all when we try to open the mouth to feed it. So now I read on the forum that sometimes putting water with sugar on their backs and leave them alone could help them feel better so I'm trying that on the ones that are barely moving (or looking dead).

However I'm really worried. Could it be intoxication from the Ivermectin treatment?
It kills me to see that Belladone was back on its feet, trying to hunt sometimes successfully and now it's looking dead! It also scares me that the fat one that was super healthy is not moving anymore, I can't loose all my frogs but one! Especially after following the vets treatment and the positive results we got from the start! It breaks my heart... I don't know what to do, what it could be, I hope you can help me once again 🙏
 

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Personally, I'd call the vet. Weekly Ivermectin x 4 is an intense protocol compared to common recommendations, though apparently the vet thought it warranted.
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Personally, I'd call the vet. Weekly Ivermectin x 4 is an intense protocol compared to common recommendations, though apparently the vet thought it warranted.
I sent an email as they are not working during the weekend and couldn't reach them, but I'll do tomorrow if they don't answer quickly. Do you think they could recover from this intense treatment or are they all going to die now? 😢
 

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Sorry, I forgot it is Sunday.

If it is an overdose, I don't think there is anything you could do about it, unfortunately. I don't think that adding anything (sugar, etc) would be beneficial, since if it is an overdose the frog needs to be able to clear the drug without overloading it with anything else.

Just kind of shooting in the dark here. I use Ivermectin on mammals, and I know the margin of safety on dosing is narrow (I've killed rodents with it). Paralysis is an effect of overdose, and the typical repeat frequency is 2-3 every 10-14 days, AFAIK. I'm just a guy on the internet, though -- the vet should know best.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
Sorry, I forgot it is Sunday.

If it is an overdose, I don't think there is anything you could do about it, unfortunately. I don't think that adding anything (sugar, etc) would be beneficial, since if it is an overdose the frog needs to be able to clear the drug without overloading it with anything else.

Just kind of shooting in the dark here. I use Ivermectin on mammals, and I know the margin of safety on dosing is narrow (I've killed rodents with it). Paralysis is an effect of overdose, and the typical repeat frequency is 2-3 every 10-14 days, AFAIK. I'm just a guy on the internet, though -- the vet should know best.
Maybe you're just a guy on the internet but you are experienced, maybe more than most vets! I'll wait for what she reply and int the meantime will just stop doing anything except feeding them and pray for the best...
 

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Maybe you're just a guy on the internet but you are experienced, maybe more than most vets! I'll wait for what she reply and int the meantime will just stop doing anything except feeding them and pray for the best...
How are your frogs doing? I am terribly sorry that this is happening.
 
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