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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi everyone!

It's been a minute since my last time on this forum, but I have not been sitting still.
Last week I've bought my first frogs; a couple of dendrobates tinctorius "amatopo".

Enjoy the pictures and if there are any recommendations to make the vivarium even nicer for them I would love to hear it.

Flower Plant Organism Terrestrial plant Leaf vegetable
Poison dart frog Frog True frog Toad Phyllobates
Light Leaf Purple Botany Natural material
Frog Vertebrate True frog Organism Poison dart frog
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I'm very surprised by the respones tbh.
Are you aware this is a (man made) hybrid of azureus x regina?
I was worried about this too, however this is not true. With the help of some great people at the DN kikkerdag we traced the heritage back to a group collected in the 1980s, which was then bred by a german. This German has sold the offspring to a Dutch breeder, who then bred three successful clutches of which I have a male and a female now.

Talk about inbreeding hehe
 

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I was worried about this too, however this is not true. With the help of some great people at the DN kikkerdag we traced the heritage back to a group collected in the 1980s, which was then bred by a german. This German has sold the offspring to a Dutch breeder, who then bred three successful clutches of which I have a male and a female now.

Talk about inbreeding hehe
Simon Bomholt wrote in a Swedish forum in 2011 that there were two common Tinctorius hybrids in the hobby at the that time.
One of them was Tinctorius Amatopo and it is a 100% confirmed hybrid.
It consists a crossbreed of Regina and Azureus originating from Wilfried Heines. Mr. Heines initially called them Big Surinam, later these were renamed Amatopo.

Another reason to be sure it is a hybrid is that there were never any Tinctorius found at Amatopo in Suriname.
Therefore Martin Haberker does not list the Amotopo in his Tinctorius morhguide at dendrobase.de
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
The story with this frogs gets more and more interesting tbh. You couldn’t imagine the hassle I went through with these. In one of my earlier threads on this topic I mentioned my ‘fear’ for hybrids: Common names for hybrid dart frogs? and now I hear that my new frogs are in fact a hybrid. This whilst on the other hand the seller and two others told me the story about the German group collected in the 1980s.

Well… I am going to enjoy them just as much as any frog.
 

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The story with this frogs gets more and more interesting tbh. You couldn’t imagine the hassle I went through with these. In one of my earlier threads on this topic I mentioned my ‘fear’ for hybrids: Common names for hybrid dart frogs? and now I hear that my new frogs are in fact a hybrid. This whilst on the other hand the seller and two others told me the story about the German group collected in the 1980s.
As I already mentioned in your earlier posted topic :

You are 100% correct in staying away from people that have these lack of ethical frog keeping, breeding or selling for that mather.

If I see a 'renowend' company selling or promoting such animals, they lose all credibility for me.
Unfortunately, those tend to be the majority of stores or pofessional breeders (resellers) imo..

The one and only professional dart frog store I will ever recommend getting animals from in Holland or Belgium is Dutch Rana.
Otherwise your best if doing some research on experienced breeders. This way you can find the most healthy and ethicly bred frogs.

I even think you are better off asking here for local breeders than you would be on Dendrobatidae Nederland. Most 'experienced' breeders have left the board already a long time aggo..


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So, I guess it's obvious you've been either lied to or 'best case' missinformed by the seller and the 2 others who in their turn could also have been missinformed? But be honoust, what are those odds..

The story just isn't true since Amapoto have been proven to be a hybrid.

Aside from all that, I'm quite surprised by your ethical change of view tbh. I wonder why you have this change of hearth comming from the topic : Common names for hybrid dart frogs? to you wanting to keep and enjoy having hybrids?
 

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Here's that thread that @Tijl referred to, I think:

 
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And

 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
As I already mentioned in your earlier posted topic :

You are 100% correct in staying away from people that have these lack of ethical frog keeping, breeding or selling for that mather.

If I see a 'renowend' company selling or promoting such animals, they lose all credibility for me.
Unfortunately, those tend to be the majority of stores or pofessional breeders (resellers) imo..

The one and only professional dart frog store I will ever recommend getting animals from in Holland or Belgium is Dutch Rana.
Otherwise your best if doing some research on experienced breeders. This way you can find the most healthy and ethicly bred frogs.

I even think you are better off asking here for local breeders than you would be on Dendrobatidae Nederland. Most 'experienced' breeders have left the board already a long time aggo..


---

So, I guess it's obvious you've been either lied to or 'best case' missinformed by the seller and the 2 others who in their turn could also have been missinformed? But be honoust, what are those odds..

The story just isn't true since Amapoto have been proven to be a hybrid.

Aside from all that, I'm quite surprised by your ethical change of view tbh. I wonder why you have this change of hearth comming from the topic : Common names for hybrid dart frogs? to you wanting to keep and enjoy having hybrids?
Gate keeping pur sang… and not believing my story. What are the odds.

I am not wasting my time writing a post if I wouldn’t care. Yes I have been misinformed there, if I knew what I knew now I would never have bought these. That being said, I have them since the DN kikkerdag and I start growing attached to them. Every living thing deserves to live, those are my ethics in a situation like this.

I thought the sellers there were all reputable, since “hybrids” are not allowed according to the DN rules. A rookie mistake I guess, in already hybrid ridden hobby. (Especially tinctorius)

If you would like a healthy discussion, I can find the contact info of the DN staff that told me this.

To be honest, I was so happy with this hobby. I waited 6 months with my viv and researched the living heck out of it for this to happen. Now I am left with a feeling of disgust.
 

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Gate keeping pur sang… and not believing my story. What are the odds.

I am not wasting my time writing a post if I would care. Yes I have been misinformed there, if I knew what I knew now I would never have bought these. That being said, I have them since the DN kikkerdag and I start growing attached to them. Every living thing deserves to live, those are my ethics in a situation like this.

I thought the sellers there were all reputable, since “hybrids” are not allowed according to the DN rules. A rookie mistake I guess, in already hybrid ridden hobby. (Especially tinctorius)

If you would like a healthy discussion, I can find the contact info of the DN staff that told me this.

To be honest, I was so happy with this hobby. I waited 6 months with my viv and researched the living heck out of it for this to happen. Now I am left with a feeling of disgust.
Don't get me wrong, I feel very sorry you got 'scammed'. I was just wondering why the change if hearts on the view of keeping hybrids, which you answered in this reply.

Again you have been missinformed. DN has stated many times before Hybrids ARE allowed to be sold at their fair. They only 'discourage' this.



Defenitly not all sellers are reputable on the fair. It's open to everyone who pays for a table..
I've seen many 'hobbyist breeders' selling low quality bred animals or giving beginners aboslute terribile advice, just so the sellers were able to get rid of their offspring and cash in. This practice happens at every animal show for that mather..

I don't agree with you on the hobby beeing hybrid ridden. It's quite the opposite tbh. There are only a handfull of rotten apples who keep spreading their 'science experiments'. The problem is as long as they get supported and their 'products' het sold, there is no reason for them to stop..

Again, sorry to hear you say you are left with a feeling of digust. I can totaly understand this and I feel you are not mistaken to do so tbh.
 

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Gate keeping pur sang… and not believing my story. What are the odds.
Not sure what you mean with this.

I you are refering to me as a 'gate keeping person?',

Yes I feel like everyone deserves to get honoust and correct help and information both beginning and seasoned animal keepers. This is why forums like these exsist in the first place.

I thought it would be VERY important for you to know the truth on the story you were made to believe, so that is why I give you all the information and evidence on your Amapoto not beeing a real morph.

Unlike the people that sold you a bullshit story your in order to scam you from your money, I have no benefefit aside from giving you the correct insight.. I could also spend my time not carring about any of this but I just rather help..

From here on, I can only advice you 2 things.

1) Don't breed and distribute more of these hybrids.
2) Talk to DN about this.
Hopefully your experience and beeing leftover with a feeling of disgust from all this, can finaly reach through to them and make them act on this by banning hybrids from their shows. This way it can be avoided that more people having to go through such an 'unplesant' experience.

You are certainly not the first, but hopelfully the last..
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
Don't get me wrong, I feel very sorry you got 'scammed'. I was just wondering why the change if hearts on the view of keeping hybrids, which you answered in this reply.

Again you have been missinformed. DN has stated many times before Hybrids ARE allowed to be sold at their fair. They only 'discourage' this.

Defenitly not all sellers are reputable on the fair. It's open to everyone who pays for a table..
I've seen many 'hobbyist breeders' selling low quality bred animals or giving beginners aboslute terribile advice, just so the sellers were able to get rid of their offspring and cash in. This practice happens at every animal show for that mather..

Again, sorry to hear you say you are left with a feeling of digust. I can totaly understand this and I feel you are not mistaken to do so tbh.
Sorry, I just felt quite attacked, whilst on one hand I bought the 'wrong' frogs on the other hand I got scammed as well. This feeling was incredibly bitter since I am dreaming about one day having dart frogs since I saw them at the person I bought my beardies from 15 years ago.

The guy that sold it to me seemed quite nice, but I should've known better when he told me that 'hybrids' could only get sterile offspring. I really did get scammed, because I explicitly asked him about this topic and he told me the story I placed a few posts above this. (I am feeling the urge call out his name, but I know better, you probably have an idea of whom I bought this frogs anyway.)

I don't agree with you on the hobby beeing hybrid ridden. It's quite the opposite tbh. There are only a handfull of rotten apples who keep spreading their 'science experiments'. The problem is as long as they get supported and their 'products' het sold, there is no reason for them to stop..
I have looked at all the morphs in the links provided and tbh some look incredibly similair. I can pick at least four morphs that my frogs could be sold as. People aren't honest, the case with my frogs as a nice example. Furthermore, these morphs are the boxes put in place by hobbyists, in nature they appear as a gradient.

And that is if the actual person knows what he is doing! We've all seen millions upon millions of posts where people have put different tinctorius in the same enclosure. These are always going to breed and enough people find it a nice project to raise a tadpole. Especially if the offspring is worth actual money and quite good money!


Not sure what you mean with this.

I you are refering to me as a 'gate keeping person?',

Yes I feel like everyone deserves to get honoust and correct help and information both beginning and seasoned animal keepers. This is why forums like these exsist in the first place.

I thought it would be VERY important for you to know the truth on the story you were made to believe, so that is why I give you all the information and evidence on your Amapoto not beeing a real morph.

Unlike the people that sold you a bullshit story your in order to scam you from your money, I have no benefefit aside from giving you the correct insight.. I could also spend my time not carring about any of this but I just rather help..

From here on, I can only advice you 2 things.

1) Don't breed and distribute more of these hybrids.
2) Talk to DN about this.
Hopefully your experience and beeing leftover with a feeling of disgust from all this, can finaly reach through to them and make them act on this by banning hybrids from their shows. This way it can be avoided that more people having to go through such an 'unplesant' experience.

You are certainly not the first, but hopelfully the last..
Yes, I was referring to you as a gatekeeper. It of course is nice to know the heritage of the frogs and I believe now that I do in fact have a 'hybrid'. However, the tone in the first few messages was quite rough and when you know my whole story, you learn that it's not as black and white. You clearly know hybrids exist and are still quite harsh on me while knowing I am a noob in comparison with you. No, this was not only informing. If that was the case you wouldn't be 'suprised' about the nice comments I've got. I rest my case.

I will see if I am going to talk to DN about this, I honestly don't want to over play my cards here. However, maybe an E-mail would be in place. One of the DN staff I talked to was the so called tinctorius expert, and I still value his input.

Lastly, I want to say that these will probably not be my last dart frogs, because I enjoy them every minute I see them. They may be 'hybrids', but I still very much like their coloration, hence why I bought exactly these.
 

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I just felt like adding-Enjoy these frogs! Even though they are ”Hybrids”, which have been established to be harmful, they are still living creatures. You clearly care about these animals, and I think it is more important and productive to look forward rather than looking backward. Now that they alive, they deserve the same respect as any other frog. It is a shame that this unrepeatable breeder got profit from these frogs, but now that they are your’s, just enjoy them. Especially when you are just starting out, large frogs like tincs are more like pets than anything else. You will grow to understand when they are begging for food, and appreciate their goofy antics. If you ended up with a pair, I would personally separate them just to prevent breeding-I don’t like euthanizing tads. However, as pet animals, they are as good as any other tinc. Don’t buy more hybrids, don’t breed these hybrids, don’t house localities together, but for now, just enjoy these beautiful frogs. Welcome! :)
-Oscar
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Honestly, if anyone wants free frogs in the Netherlands, feel free to contact me :) I don’t want them to end up in the wrong hands.

Breeding was one of the main things I looked forward to.
 
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