[Pumilo]

Thanks Ravage!

 

[Dr. Manhattan]

One thing I definitely do, and I'm pretty sure most of us on here do the same is not use any of same buckets, untenils, container's between the different vivs/aquariums/paludariums that house our different species. For example I have different cricket "dusting" bins and long handled stainless steel tweezers for feeding. All can be thoroughly cleaned and sanitized once a week. I 100% fear something nasty jumping from my gray tree frog to my Mossy Frogs.

 

[Kmc]

Hi Dr Manhattan,

Hey not to change the subject (but why not!) I would love to hear about your keeping experience with your Mossy Frogs.

I also like forceps feeding for many subjects. I like the control and input data. Just for informational, check out alligator forceps (Jorvets) Storz also has a model that is even thinner stemmed, these have actually served as an 'extension of my will' as a keeper in feeding. Its like being able to make a food item appear, stay well located, move just-so, and score a Take no matter how fey the subject, what type or easy to vanish into sub is used, etc, etc

 

[Johanovich]

Ok so orangutans and otters in the same enclosure is fine but let's say swordtails and platies arent ? I get not mixing dart frogs, or any other delicate vivarium animals. I think most of us on here are not dumb enough ( I hope ) to mix different species requiring different environmental parameters, size differences, predator/prey relationships etc. Same goes with fish, fresh or salt. I'm not going stick a Cynotilapia afra in with a school of cardinal tetras in a blackwater tank. But I see no problem with a blackwater biotope tank consisting of the aforementioned cardinal tetras, some discrossus cichlids, apistogrammas, etc.

Coming back to this post I actually think it is also not ok to put otters and orangutans in the same enclosure. I think this zoo took a pretty big risk but it happened to turn out ok. The orangutans might just as well have thrown the otters against the enclosure walls on their first encounter.

 

[Kmc]

I would have to agree. It was nice to see Orangs entertained and not sitting inertly, back turned to avoid the stares and clamor of the idiot crowds, but it isnt hygienic. Wet mustelids are not sanitary companions. Aquatic carnivores in contact with arboreal frugivores would not be every curators idea of a rational combination.

 

[Kmc]

I dont mean to be square but I would be concerned however admittedly those Our Gang otters look as fun as hell.

I wish them all wellness, and everyone here as well.

 

[Dr. Manhattan]

The orangutans and otters are very adorable on their own, playing together is just too much cuteness 🙂

 

[hypostatic]

Ugh, just do what's best for the frogs. No one knows everything. Do some research. You'll find lots of examples of people who've tried mixing and have gotten bad results. Citing the reef hobby is a great example of why NOT to mix -- I've never IMAGINED such a high mortality in any pet hobby as there is in "reefing".

A lot of people are going to do whatever they want to do; screw the naysayers and the consequences.

Even though I feel like there's an ever smaller-growing number of us, I'm grateful that there's still people who are most concerned with the health and well being of the animals. Please never stop fighting for what's right.

 

[Socratic Monologue]

Dredging this up because this thread is the most relevant place to link this article about fungal genetic recombination (cited in the article Ravage linked above, but oddly undiscussed in it).

To address these and related points:

Mixing species in an enclosure, whether it be frogs or tropical fish is most likely (note: here I am using "likely" as a vernacular statement relating to probability) to wipe out your charges, and far less likely to create a global pandemic in novel lineages. Not impossible of course.

Fungi do not work the same way as viruses (who can easily incorporate new genetic material into their own) but there is still al lot of potential for exchanging genetic material between strains/species.

Multiple emergences of genetically diverse amphibian-infecting chytrids include a globalized hypervirulent recombinant lineage

Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis ( Bd ) is a globally ubiquitous fungal infection that has emerged to become a primary driver of amphibian biodiversity loss. Despite widespread effort to understand the emergence of this panzootic, the origins of the infection, its patterns of global spread, and...

www.pnas.org

Excerpt (emphasis mine): "The origin of novel virulence in fungal species via recombination/ hybridization is a well-recognized pathway underpinning disease emergence for increasing numbers of plant and animal pathogens (1, 23). Genomic rearrangement between allopatric fungal lineages that have not evolved reproductive barriers is promoted when anthropogenically mediated dispersal increases the rate of lineage mixing. The resulting novel interlineage recombinants exhibit a diversity of virulence profiles, some of which can initiate epidemics; contemporary examples include the evolution of hypervirulence in the Vancouver Island outbreak of Cryptococcus gattii (24), and many novel aggressive plant pathogens that increasingly threaten global food security (25) as well as natural populations (26).
We postulate that the anthropogenic mixing of allopatric lineages of Bd has led to the generation of the hypervirulent BdGPL via an ancestral meiosis, and that, as previously suggested (9), this lineage is undergoing further diversification by either mitotic or sexual recombination. We show that the global trade in amphibians is resulting in contact and cross-transmission of Bd among previously naive host species, resulting in intercontinental pathogen spread."

 

[Gastrotheca]

I completely agree, Socratic Monologue.
Some just don't realize that mixing species for pleasure is a huge risk they shouldn't choose to take. Arguments for mixing species are sometimes as simple as "they live in the same locale", or "these animals habitate the same country". However, they do not know, or simply ignore, that these species likely do not live in the same level of the forest (canopy, understory, leaf litter, etc). Let alone live in the close quarters that are given in a vivarium. And, even if they do, they are forced into each others' "breathing" space. This poses a great danger because this becomes a breeding ground for new and evolving bacteria, pathogens, viruses, and fungi.

Think of one certain animal like a key and lock combination. The key is not supposed to fit in a whole lot of different locks. It is not right or ethical. Think of what is more important, the true safety and well-being of the animal, or a little bit of pleasure because of unnecessary interactions between two different species. Definitely the former choice.

Simply understand:
These animals were made intricately; they were not made for adapting to the genes, DNA structure, and different pathogens/viruses of every animal they are cast into a situation with.

Just my opinion tho

Thanks for your time!

Gastrotheca
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