[Kmc]

Do you even know what a novel pathogen is?

Do you think that we are aware of all novel pathogens that affect organisms, whether thru anthropogenic action or otherwise?

My friend, a reef keeper, developed a severe and incurable fungus in the bed of his nails. Doctors agreed that it was likely acquired from his work but could not identify it.

How many fish and other animals die without diagnostic identification in the least, in private and professional format.

Do you think a pathogen has to make CNN, or come to light in "your awareness" in order to exist?

 

[Socratic Monologue]

Presumably he never kept any community aquariums, never bought or sold any live rock, strictly isolated species from different areas and sterlisied all of the waste water generated before disposing of it

A more realistic presumption is that people tend to do what is generally accepted, until they gain information to suggest that they ought to change their practices.

On the aquarium pathogen issue:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41396-019-0461-5

 

[Louis]

Do you even know what a novel pathogen is?

I understand it to mean a previously unidentified pathogen or one that has gained new functions through natural evolution or human intervention.

Do you think that we are aware of all novel pathogens that affect organisms, whether thru anthropogenic action or otherwise?

I assume this is sarcasm but no I don't imagine we are aware of all the novel pathogens that affect organisms.

My friend, a reef keeper, developed a severe and incurable fungus in the bed of his nails. Doctors agreed that it was likely acquired from his work but could not identify it.

Interesting anecdote but I'm not sure what conclusions you want me to draw from it in the absence of further information. You could aquire a fungal nail bed infection just by virtue of having wet hands more often from working with water, did they publish any research relating to this new, unidentified and incurable human pathogen or did he in fact just have a bad case of nail fungus which is famously difficult to cure and not solely caused by any single known species of fungi? It's almost unimaginable this wouldn't have been the subject of published research unless you are dramatically overstating the case but this kind of research would be exactly what I'm looking for.

How many fish and other animals die without diagnostic identification in the least, in private and professional format.

the vast majority I would imagine.

Do you think a pathogen has to make CNN, or come to light in "your awareness" in order to exist?

No, did I say something that implied I did?

Once again, I am not advocating for mixing species, what I'm pointing out is that it occurs on a scale in the ornamental fish industry against which the number of amphibians being kept by hobbyists pales into insignifance.
I imagine that strong evidence for this resulting in the creation of novel pathogens might exist as far more research is and has been conducted in the field of fishkeeping due to the scale of the industry.
I'm also curious whether the people here warning of the dangers of mixing species of amphibians had, or have, the same degree of concern about mixing species of fish/coral from different areas of the globe and what precautions they took/are taking against the creation of a novel pathogen in mixed species fish tanks from which it also seems far more likely to escape 'into the wild'. I'd also like to know if there's any reason to believe that the creation of a novel pathogen is less likely to occur this way than through mixing reptile and amphibian species that I'm not aware of. For example I had no idea why captive dart frogs might actually be more susceptible to pathogens in general than some other amphibians or their wild counterparts until I queried this on here just a few days ago and someone linked me to a fascinating study on exactly why this might be the case. It's not a trick question, I'm just engaging with the discussion and I don't think that hostile or defensive responses to these kind of inquiries is productive but please don't take my word for it. I'm a member of the 'rare miniature terrarium plants' facebook group, from there facebook often tries to direct me to a closed 'mixed species terrarium and vivarium' group that describes itself like so:

I have set this group up for a number of reasons the main one being that there are a number of people like myself who have mixed species tanks but there are a lot of people who would like one however are generally bullied when they ask the question.

If you refuse to engage with people asking questions in this kind of thread or just respond in a hostile and sarcastic manner people just retreat into echo chambers where you lose the opportunity for productive intervention in ill informed bad ideas

 

[Louis]

Thanks for the link socratic monologue I'm reading it now.

 

[Socratic Monologue]

Thanks for the link socratic monologue I'm reading it now.

Hopefully it is the final nail in this horse's coffin.

 

[Louis]

Hopefully it is the final nail in this horse's coffin.

I genuinely don't understand what's so offensive about my posts in this thread?
What's the problem in exploring and elaborating on the basic premise of the thread?
I really think some of you are attributing a motive to my posts that just simply doesn't exist.

 

[Kmc]

My friend had a fungal infection in the bed of his nails that resulted from his work in the aquaria industry. It was clear enough to specialists to warrant compensation.

All of his Doctors agreed, and had never seen the type he presented in any other case.


Not to nit pick but referring to novel pathogens as being "created" is misleading.

Also, not everyone goes for community tanks anymore.

At the last place I worked we encouraged mono schools of same fish, special emphasis on tetra species.

People respond to good ideas.

It is also striking to see, beautiful in a way community tanks are not.

 

[Louis]

My friend had a fungal infection in the bed of his nails that resulted from his work in the aquaria industry. It was clear enough to specialists to warrant compensation.

All of his Doctors agreed, and had never seen the type he presented in any other case.

Look you're not going to believe this no matter what I say but here it is anyway.
The reason I'm not ready to assume this is relevant to this particular question without much more evidence is that I work at sea and a member of my crew contracted a severe fungal nail infection, that reached the nailbed, and was totally unresponsive to common treatments.
Medical insurance and lucky circumstances allowed him to visit supposedly one of the most published and cited experts on toenail fungus in the world (self proclaimed but no real reason to doubt it) based in Cannes who similarly attributed the infection to his job based on the fact that his feet were often exposed to water. They similarly didn't identify the specific species causing the problem, not because it was necessarily a novel pathogen but simply because there are SO many species and genera that cause the same symtpoms and there wasn't much to be gained by taking the measures necessary to identify it as medical insurance rarely if ever covers the cost of the lab cultures and testing necessary to do so because the treatments available would be the same regardless of species.
In the end it was cured with turbinafine hydrachloride and laser therapy. That doctor specifically told us that contrary to common assumptions he has rarely ever found that different individuals presenting symptoms of nail fungus are infected with the same pathogen.
What I suspect is that your friend would likely have contracted the disease even had all the tanks he was working with not contained any fish. Water is the common factor to both these and most other diagnosis of toenail fungus.
If he genuinely had a new and incurable zoonotic fungal infection I would be very interested to hear more and I'm totally confident he would have been subject to further research.

Not to nit pick but referring to novel pathogens as being "created" is misleading.

This seems pretty relevant to the "let's creat a novel pathogen" part of the thread title.
Anyway this is why I refered to 'gain of function' in my previous post.
Here's some reporting on a 'novel' coronavirus created through gain of function research https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/lab-made-coronavirus-triggers-debate-34502?archived_content=9BmGYHLCH6vLGNdd9YzYFAqV8S3Xw3L5 *this is unrelated to the current covid 19 outbreak, I am not engaging in conspiracy theories, nor am I claiming this virus was "created from scratch" or particularly relevant to this thread, I'm only posting it for interest and to clarify what I mean by gain of function or novel pathogens being 'created' through human intervention*

Also, not everyone goes for community tanks anymore.

At the last place I worked we encouraged mono schools of same fish, special emphasis on tetra species.

People respond to good ideas.

It is also striking to see, beautiful in a way community tanks are not.

That's admirable and biotope or species only tanks can be absolutely fantastic, but I stand by the fact that the overwhelming majority of household aquariums, reef or freshwater, are still what would best be described as 'community tanks' and I'd bet that many of your customers disregarded the advice.

 

[Pumilo]

Louis, it is possible for people to grow, mature, learn more about their world and charges, and do their best to create a better life for them. I was a much younger man when I did my coral farm. I was farming corals before I was in the frog hobby.
My first time through the frog hobby, the internet was not what it is today. There was no dendroboard. There were no books or magazines on frogkeeping and how to do right by your animals. Nobody talked to me about how viruses and bacteria swap dna as readily as they do. Still, I never did a mixed frog vivarium because of all the other reasons that have been discussed many times over the years.
Many years later, years in which I matured, learned that I did not know everything, and discovered the wealth of information on the internet, I entered the frog hobby again. At first, I just sat back and learned. Eventually, I met the best friend I've never met, Ed. I've learned a lot from Ed. I like how he often just drops a hint, and makes you go and research things for yourself.

Anyway, Louis, you don't have to get ridiculous about it. You could simply ask me.
Yes, I sold live rock...kind of. I made my own live rock from Portland cement and oyster shell. Eventually, I learned to make strong and beautiful sculptures. It does take a long time to cure before you can even start to grow coraline algae to grow on it. Aside from when I sold my used systems when I closed down my farm, I never, never, sold a piece of live rock other than the live rock I made myself.
No, I did not mix corals or fish from different oceans, but yes, I did mix corals and fish from different collection areas.
I read every reefkeeping book I could get my hands on, but no, nobody ever taught me the importance of sterilizing waste water.
Again, you could have done this without being juvenile and making accusations. I am proud of the work I did towards making changes in the reefkeeping hobby. Frankly, it pisses me off more than a little for you to try and use my coral reef conservation efforts to discredit me. I was the first commercial coral farmer in Colorado. I taught anybody who would listen, all I could about the plight of the reefs. I taught anyone who wanted to learn, how propagate coral, how to make their own "live" rock. Colorado has become a coral farming mecca. We now have a lot of great coral farmers in Colorado, and I helped to build that scene. I won't hide from my past, I'm proud of it. I learn from it, and anybody who cares to, can learn from it, too.

Seriously? "Hey everyone, Doug used to farm live coral, allowing many thousands of corals to stay at home on the reef! Doug used to push coral reef conservation every time he got a chance! He was a...a CONSERVATIONIST (gasp!) that didn't know everything in the world!"

Louis, it is possible for people to grow, mature, learn more about their world and charges, and do their best to create a better life for them.

Next time just ask.

 

[Louis]

Anyway, Louis, you don't have to get ridiculous about it. You could simply ask me.

Next time just ask.

Doug, I'm not trying to discredit you and I salute your efforts to protect corals from being harvested in the wild I really do.
I think your arguments against mixing would be enhanced by mentioning these things and highlighting the fact that it's something you engaged in yourself at one point and that you therefore understand why it's an appealing idea to some people, before coming to a better understanding of the risks involved.
As far as just asking goes, here's me "just asking" on page one of this thread in a post I know you definitely read because you referred to it when you said "If Louis and Xou..."

I know that some of you were or are also reefkeepers, has anyone addressed Xue's point about community fishkeeping? did/do you all take the same measures to avoid mixing species from different geographical areas of the ocean or different bodies of freshwater? If not, why? Surely the risk of a novel pathogen escaping into the environment from mixed community fishtanks is far greater as often water from changes is poured straight down the drain.

Thank you for taking the time to answer in full.

 

[Socratic Monologue]

I genuinely don't understand what's so offensive about my posts in this thread?
What's the problem in exploring and elaborating on the basic premise of the thread?
I really think some of you are attributing a motive to my posts that just simply doesn't exist.

Possibly many of us are misunderstanding you. You often come off as very passive aggressive, and that's what motivates many of the hostile responses you get.

Once in a while you post something that is outright contemptuous, and that sticks in peoples' minds for a long time, and colors their future treatment of you:

https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/f...-fruit-fly-culturing-cabinet.html#post3085880

If you make a habit of claiming that DB sucks, and FB is much better, folks here are not going to be motivated to interpret your posts at all charitably.

This is intended kindly, to be clear. I don't want to offend anyone; I just want to answer your question.

 

[Pumilo]

As far as just asking goes, here's me "just asking" on page one of this thread in a post I know you definitely read because you referred to it when you said "If Louis and Xou..."

My apologies for not answering the first time. I do my best to avoid outright arguing anymore. My stress and anxiety can't handle it. I do like to help when people want to learn. In the second paragraph of the post you are referring to, I made a quick call that you were here to argue.

 

[Louis]

Possibly many of us are misunderstanding you. You often come off as very passive aggressive, and that's what motivates many of the hostile responses you get.

Once in a while you post something that is outright contemptuous, and that sticks in peoples' minds for a long time, and colors their future treatment of you:

https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/f...-fruit-fly-culturing-cabinet.html#post3085880

If you make a habit of claiming that DB sucks, and FB is much better, folks here are not going to be motivated to interpret your posts at all charitably.

This is intended kindly, to be clear. I don't want to offend anyone; I just want to answer your question.

I take your point but I have to highlight that nowhere, ever, have I said that DB sucks and FB is much better, or even that facebook is better at all - you are literally confusing me with somebody else. Within this very thread I've highlighted the problem of people being driven into echo chambers on facebook.
I can't comment as far as generally being passive aggressive goes, maybe I am and maybe I'm not, it's not something I've been accused of before but I'll take it into consideration although I don't think a review of my posting history would reveal it be passive aggressive.
As far as that particular post goes that's 'colouring' your treatment of me, I can admit that I could have phrased it much more delicately and maybe that wasn't the right place to make the point but I'm afraid I did and do think that it's a valid point.
As a point of principle I tend to focus on what someone has posted rather than who has posted it so I hadn't connected it with you or anyone elses responses to what I've said since but I appreciate the explanation.

 

[Ravage]

I can't believe I missed this spirited conversation until now!

Once Upon a Time, the dreaded frog plague known as Chytrid, was theorized to have been created by accident, possibly within our very own frog Hobby, by keeping inappropriate animals together.

Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis, which we tend to refer to as cythrid is one of thousands of cythrid fungi. Cythrids live off of, digest; chitin, as do the Cordyceps and Beavaria fungi. Amphibians have chitin in their lips and, to some extent their skin generally. The source of the Amphibian cythrid is now known: Human food Amphibian farms in the Korean peninsula. It mutated on farms and was distributed to gourmands around the world. A "perfect storm" in the realm of pathology. This industry is of an exponential scale beyond that of hobby frogs.
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6389/621.full

That being said, it COULD'VE happened just as Pumilo hypothesized. Human actions definitely led to the mutations that gave rise to the pathogenic strain of Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis. And we know that it has been transmitted to captive hobby frogs by the practices of some in the hobby. (I remember some kerfluffles in the past, and the resultant accusations, but it's all second-hand to me, so I won't go into them) I also agree that there are lots of other good reasons not to mix and match species. And I agree with Ian Malcolm as well. Life finds a way, to its advantage and not necessarily ours. Just because we have played with kerosene and fire for years, and have yet to burn ourselves to the ground, is no guarantee that our next bonfire will not be our last.

 

[Dr. Manhattan]

Ok so orangutans and otters in the same enclosure is fine but let's say swordtails and platies arent ? I get not mixing dart frogs, or any other delicate vivarium animals. I think most of us on here are not dumb enough ( I hope ) to mix different species requiring different environmental parameters, size differences, predator/prey relationships etc. Same goes with fish, fresh or salt. I'm not going stick a Cynotilapia afra in with a school of cardinal tetras in a blackwater tank. But I see no problem with a blackwater biotope tank consisting of the aforementioned cardinal tetras, some discrossus cichlids, apistogrammas, etc.

 

[Socratic Monologue]

But I see no problem with a blackwater biotope tank consisting of the aforementioned cardinal tetras, some discrossus cichlids, apistogrammas, etc.

Well, since the genetic mixing discussion is focused on mixing pathogens from different regions, that example isn't very relevant. But if you put a kribensis in there, then yes, the biological facts about the dangers of mixing pathogens apply.

The aquarium fish analogy only goes so far, though, since fish from all regions have been mixed at a couple points along the chain of custody (at the wholesaler in the US, and at the retailer, at least) before they reach the final purchaser.

 

[Socratic Monologue]

I take your point but I have to highlight that nowhere, ever, have I said that DB sucks and FB is much better, or even that facebook is better at all - you are literally confusing me with somebody else.

Louis, I think the current spat is winding down, and I'm glad of that, and I don't want to be seen as drawing it out. I do want to point out what made me say what I did, and that I'm not confusing you with someone else, because I do not want to treat anyone unfairly, and I want to clarify this publicly.

The two -- both recent -- posts I had in mind were the one I linked earlier:

Yeah, that and the pompous, verbose, sanctimonious sneering of 'experts' whenever anyone deviates from the established dendroboard dogma or tries to experiment with something new. I joined this board six years ago and lurked for years before that and I completely understand why the the board is nowhere near as active as it used to be.
Give it time and this board will just be the same handful of members sitting around sniffing each others farts and discussing how much better things were 'back in the day' before the 'McDonalds fast food drive thru lane' ruined everything.
It wasn't always this way on here and the funniest thing is if you look at analogous forums for say, planted aquariums, the same thing doesn't happen. It's very unique to dendroboard.

And this one (turns out they were both in the same thread):

I mostly come here to refer back to useful older threads and don't post much, if I'm looking for new information or fresh ideas I don't come to dendroboard.
I'm probably much more aware of it because I participate in various other forums and facebook groups that just don't have the same problem.

This last quote is what I had in mind when I summarized as I did, and I still think my summary accurate. For those of us who really feel DB is a special place, that hurt a bit.

 

[Socratic Monologue]

That being said, it COULD'VE happened just as Pumilo hypothesized. Human actions definitely led to the mutations that gave rise to the pathogenic strain of Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis.

According to the paper, it is still happening:

"To determine the extent to which the four main lineages of B. dendrobatidis have undergone recent genetic exchange, we used the site-by-site–based approach implemented in STRUCTURE (29). Although most isolates could be assigned unambiguously to one of the four main lineages, we identified three hybrid genotypes (Fig. 3B), including one previously reported hybrid (isolate CLFT024/2) (20), and discovered two newly identified hybrids of BdGPL and BdCAPE in South Africa. Furthermore, BdCH (isolate 0739) appears to be a chimera of multiple lineages that may represent unsampled genomic diversity residing in East Asia, rather than true hybridization. These hybrid genomes demonstrate that B. dendrobatidis is continuing to exchange haplotypes among lineages when they interact after continental invasions, generating novel genomic diversity."

 

[Pumilo]

According to the paper, it is still happening:

"To determine the extent to which the four main lineages of B. dendrobatidis have undergone recent genetic exchange, we used the site-by-site–based approach implemented in STRUCTURE (29). Although most isolates could be assigned unambiguously to one of the four main lineages, we identified three hybrid genotypes (Fig. 3B), including one previously reported hybrid (isolate CLFT024/2) (20), and discovered two newly identified hybrids of BdGPL and BdCAPE in South Africa. Furthermore, BdCH (isolate 0739) appears to be a chimera of multiple lineages that may represent unsampled genomic diversity residing in East Asia, rather than true hybridization. These hybrid genomes demonstrate that B. dendrobatidis is continuing to exchange haplotypes among lineages when they interact after continental invasions, generating novel genomic diversity."

Four main lineages...that brings back memories from years ago. I'm about 95% sure that is the article I researched back then. Thank you, good sir.

 

[Socratic Monologue]

Four main lineages...that brings back memories from years ago. I'm about 95% sure that is the article I researched back then. Thank you, good sir.

Thanks to Ravage, for linking the paper!