[Azurel]

This gets back to my original position that people who are recommending larger enclosures have to own the responsibility to get newer people the information on how to set up an enclosure correctly. Just telling someone that x tank is insufficient because it is too small isn't an accurate statement much less a helpful method to pass along the information.

It seems like that would be even more important for those that are OK right off the bat for 10gs for new hobbyest to get that info for them as well right?

I mean it seems that the smaller the tank/viv the more important it is to build it correctly from the get go where as a larger viv there is a bit more wiggle room.

 

[Scott Richardson]

Food for thought..................If it works it isn't broke.

If someone is successful with a method other than your own, it isn't wrong. Just different.

 

[dravenxavier]

I think the idea (at least where I was trying to steer it) isn't necessarily about right/wrong, but rather trying to do better. Trying to improve. Also touching on what methods would make it easier for those just getting into it...whether it be a small tank or large tank, weighing the various options and pros/cons attributed to each.

It may work...but is it the best? Can we do better? Is it the best way for someone who is new to dart frogs to start off? But not really "no, you're doing it wrong!"

 

[Scott Richardson]

I respect that.

My comment was more to the bash on Richard. Richard and I disagree on some topics, but he has success with 10s, which were the standard not long ago, so what is wrong with it.

As for new people, it is more about design than size. but I see where you are going.

 

[Ed]

Is there such a thing? I think it should be a bit more refined to "at what point is a standard recommendation of tank size overkill?"

Personally, my favorite size is the 20L/29 as far as floor space is concerned. Well, my absolute favorite is the 40B, but that may indeed be overkill.

There is a personal opinion element in it (as with many things in the hobby) but one of the reasons I brought it up is because it could easily be used as a method of elitism. Tens were commonly used in past in part due to thier cost and availability. We have in this thread seen recommendations that 40 gallons is the lowest that should be recommended... This is a significant investment compared to a ten gallon aquarium as locally I can get brand new tens for $8-12 while the normal price for 40 gallon breeders runs $114. Almost a ten fold difference in price.

I'm inclined to lean towards a 40 breeder being the upper limit for a pair of tinctorius frogs and may depending on how it is set up for a small group of frogs (as at one point, groups of tinctorius, auratus or other tinctorious groups were decided on based on 5 gallons/frog.. I'm not ready to go that far..) Is there really that much benefit to a 29 or 30 gallon over a 20 long as your increasing height and not floor space? For example aren't 20 longs close to 12 by 30 by 13 while 30s are close to close to 12 by 30 by 19 (slight variations between brands is why I've rounded numbers). The height allows for some taller plants but the trade off in accessing them in a rack set-up for maintence is a pain in the neck trade off..


Ed

 

[Ed]

I respect that.

My comment was more to the bash on Richard. Richard and I disagree on some topics, but he has success with 10s, which were the standard not long ago, so what is wrong with it.

As for new people, it is more about design than size. but I see where you are going.

It is still the standard for some institutions and hobbyists.

 

[dravenxavier]

I'm inclined to lean towards a 40 breeder being the upper limit for a pair of tinctorius frogs and may depending on how it is set up for a small group of frogs (as at one point, groups of tinctorius, auratus or other tinctorious groups were decided on based on 5 gallons/frog.. I'm not ready to go that far..) Is there really that much benefit to a 29 or 30 gallon over a 20 long as your increasing height and not floor space? For example aren't 20 longs close to 12 by 30 by 13 while 30s are close to close to 12 by 30 by 19 (slight variations between brands is why I've rounded numbers). The height allows for some taller plants but the trade off in accessing them in a rack set-up for maintence is a pain in the neck trade off..


Ed

As for dimensions, I've noticed that the standard 30 has become something of a specialty around here. I forget the height, but the footprint was 36 x 12. Yes, the 20 long and 29 have the same footprint. My inclusion of both was pretty much offering them both up as equally good choices. However, I'm inclined to feel the 29 gallon may be slightly superior, as it (as you said) opens up plant options (a big part of this hobby, after all) and MAY help give a cooler temperature as you reach the bottom of the tank...important to note given the recent number of threads concerning overheating. Though as noted, that height can also be a down side.

 

[Ed]

As for dimensions, I've noticed that the standard 30 has become something of a specialty around here. I forget the height, but the footprint was 36 x 12. Yes, the 20 long and 29 have the same footprint. My inclusion of both was pretty much offering them both up as equally good choices. However, I'm inclined to feel the 29 gallon may be slightly superior, as it (as you said) opens up plant options (a big part of this hobby, after all) and MAY help give a cooler temperature as you reach the bottom of the tank...important to note given the recent number of threads concerning overheating. Though as noted, that height can also be a down side.

A lot of the problems with overheating may in some part be due to the twin practices of high light to maximize plant selection and availability and sealing the tank to maximize humidity. This results in a lack of methods to vent the heat from the tanks. In addition, in rack style setups you also have a heat source warming the bottom of the tanks as well.

So given the husbandry practices is a taller tank really a cure or just a placebo?

Ed

 

[Jellyman]

Question about humidity:
Even though the humidity where the frogs are is very high is this really ideal for the frogs? or can a lower humidity possibly be more beneficial?

I personally only keep the humidity around 70-75%. This helps keep the glass from fogging up and if I measure the humidty closer to the soil it is usually around 80-85% anyway.

Any thoughts?

 

[boabab95]

Question about humidity:
Even though the humidity where the frogs are is very high is this really ideal for the frogs? or can a lower humidity possibly be more beneficial?

I personally only keep the humidity around 70-75%. This helps keep the glass from fogging up and if I measure the humidty closer to the soil it is usually around 80-85% anyway.

Any thoughts?

Benefical? Yes and No, it would give them a break with breeding, causing less stress... but might dry them out too much if it's too dry...


A good friend of mine stops misting completely in the winter for her Mantella and anthonyi, throws on a screen lid, and just uses the pond in the tank to keep humidity...then once spring hits, she puts the glass back on, and starts misting again, and she gets eggs within a week...

she says this keeps them breeding longer, and healthier, resulting in healthier tads, and froglets...

 

[Ed]

There are multiple reasons to be suspicious of too little ventilation. Personally for the last 20 plus years I've tended to provide good ventilation and watch the behaviors of the frogs. It is easier to reduce ventilation if you have too much than to attempt to add ventilation in a sealed up enclosure.

Ed

 

[Paul]

just shy clear of these topics...better to talk about religion, abortion, etc... less headaches!

 

[dravenxavier]

just shy clear of these topics...better to talk about religion, abortion, etc... less headaches!

Actually I'd like to think that, while not exactly related to mixing species (but can be...) we made some pretty good discussion these last couple of pages.