Mixing Species Help!

11253 Views 132 Replies 32 Participants Last post by dravenxavier, Jun 29, 2011

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Discussion Starter · Jun 25, 2011

I am a beginner to the world of dart frogs, and am in the process of setting up a 12x12x18 vivarium. Ive heard a lot about the danger of un "pure" frogs and hybrids and am wondering why no one buys them/why they are a big deal? on a side note what would be a good number/type of dart frog (I dont want auratus

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Ed

· #81 · Jun 27, 2011

I seperated this on purpose..

I think we can readily discuss and come up with reasons why a properly set up larger enclosure is better than a properly set up smaller enclosure, however we have to recognize that properly set up is not going to be the same for all species.

Right off the bat we can put out there that for primarily terrestrial species, leaf litter is important and moss is unimportant except for aesthetic purposes.

for the tinctorius group, bromeliads are not needed in the enclosure.. some form of hut for courtship and egg deposition is needed...

There are a lot more of these...

Ed

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fleshfrombone

· #82 · Jun 27, 2011

Mapp said:
We should call up NBC and tell them to replace biggest losers or some other reality show with screenshots from dendroboard.
Now THAT's entertaining.

Yes but keep the title.

Reactions: 1

frogfreak

· #83 · Jun 27, 2011

Ed said:
not simply throw out that is too small yada yada yada....

Why? Like I said before, all you have to do is look at 2 Tincs in a ten and see that they could use some more room. So, if people say a ten is to small, why to they have to back it up?

My wife and I sleep in a queen size bed. A double is to small. Do I have to prove that too?

Just saying...

and off to work I go

Ed

· #84 · Jun 27, 2011

frogfreak said:
Why? Like I said before, all you have to do is look at 2 Tincs in a ten and see that they could use some more room. So, if people say a ten is to small, why to they have to back it up?

My wife and I sleep in a queen size bed. A double is to small. Do I have to prove that too?

Just saying...

and off to work I go

Hi Glenn,

So the fact that tens were standard and successful for more than 20 years doesn't have any weight in this discussion?

How are you seperating out anthropomorphism from the decision process?

Why do they need more room? Food is provided so foraging is out, egg deposition sites are provided, shelter is provided, the rooms are temperature controlled so they don't have to look for microniches to avoid extremes. So why?

See my post above here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/69995-mixing-species-help-9.html#post612663

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poison beauties

· #85 · Jun 27, 2011

Since its not going to end why should I, I do have a bit to add here. You explained away many of the valid reasons we have attempted to use as to why go bigger than atleast a ten. Back to ventilation.....We all know most with a ten just use a simple piece of glass, that said you wourself said the hobby leans towards a more closed in unventilated viv. With that comes the build up of CO2 and if your using a ten gallon I dont see your option to leave the viv unattended being a good one. I could and have left my vivs 55 gallons untouched for more than a week and even two when I had no choice. Who would do this with a ten? Would someone with a ten gallon of tincs be lwilling to test this out vs a larger viv? We all know of the talks in the past of darts dieing to CO2 build up. With a 10 gallon without much of or any plantlife since tincs dont require it I dont see it going well for the frogs. I would much rather leave my frogs in a larger viv with a better chance and more stable and abundant microfauna population.

Michael

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Ed

· #86 · Jun 27, 2011

Actually I was hoping it would end with suggestions on how to do it successfully. Which I tried to start above.

So why do you think that a larger enclosure with a larger biomass living it isn't at as much risk as a smaller enclosure?

mantisdragon91

· #87 · Jun 27, 2011

poison beauties said:
Since its not going to end why should I, I do have a bit to add here. You explained away many of the valid reasons we have attempted to use as to why go bigger than atleast a ten. Back to ventilation.....We all know most with a ten just use a simple piece of glass, that said you wourself said the hobby leans towards a more closed in unventilated viv. With that comes the build up of CO2 and if your using a ten gallon I dont see your option to leave the viv unattended being a good one. I could and have left my vivs 55 gallons untouched for more than a week and even two when I had no choice. Who would do this with a ten? Would someone with a ten gallon of tincs be lwilling to test this out vs a larger viv? We all know of the talks in the past of darts dieing to CO2 build up. With a 10 gallon without much of or any plantlife since tincs dont require it I dont see it going well for the frogs. I would much rather leave my frogs in a larger viv with a better chance and more stable and abundant microfauna population.

Michael

I have tinc morphs living in 10 gallon tanks and in 40 gallon tanks. Can't say I have seen much diffrence in behavior, weight or heath of either groups(2 groups in each size tank)

poison beauties

· #88 · Jun 27, 2011

mantisdragon91 said:
I have tinc morphs living in 10 gallon tanks and in 40 gallon tanks. Can't say I have seen much diffrence in behavior, weight or heath of either groups(2 groups in each size tank)

Noted Roman, but what about the difference in a long term scenerio, and what about an unattended viv for a period of time. My guess is you will notice a difference.

Michael

evolvstll

· #89 · Jun 27, 2011

poison beauties said:
Since its not going to end why should I, I do have a bit to add here. You explained away many of the valid reasons we have attempted to use as to why go bigger than atleast a ten. Back to ventilation.....We all know most with a ten just use a simple piece of glass, that said you wourself said the hobby leans towards a more closed in unventilated viv. With that comes the build up of CO2 and if your using a ten gallon I dont see your option to leave the viv unattended being a good one. I could and have left my vivs 55 gallons untouched for more than a week and even two when I had no choice. Who would do this with a ten? Would someone with a ten gallon of tincs be lwilling to test this out vs a larger viv? We all know of the talks in the past of darts dieing to CO2 build up. With a 10 gallon without much of or any plantlife since tincs dont require it I dont see it going well for the frogs. I would much rather leave my frogs in a larger viv with a better chance and more stable and abundant microfauna population.

Michael

Dieing from CO2 buildup? Really? I have not experienced any such thing.........ever.

A 10 set up: Can have a sloped front, that can allow for egg deposit. Ghost wood placed to allow more space. Choosing plants with broad flat leaves that will allow even more space. Even fitting in 2 coco huts. Just a few for starters.

NathanB

· #90 · Jun 27, 2011

I for one don't want to think for myself. Bigger is always better.

Reactions: 1

JasonE

· #91 · Jun 27, 2011 (Edited)

I'm a big fan of "bigger is better." but there is absolutely nothing wrong with a ten gallon for most species of tincs. I have an azureus pair breeding and living great in a ten gallon. I wouldn't put something as large as cobalts or terribilis in a ten, but most frogs are fine.

And where is this CO2 death coming from? I've never heard anyone have this problem. Maybe if your tank was air tight and had no plants at all... However, no tank is going to be air tight. And who builds a viv without plants? Finally, who doesn't touch their vivs for a week? My frogs like to eat, and I'd like them to live. You're not going to leave your frogs viv closed up for weeks. If you do, and the frogs are dead, it's from a lack of food, not CO2. This theory is utterly ridiculous.

dravenxavier

· #92 · Jun 27, 2011

Ed said:
I seperated this on purpose..

I think we can readily discuss and come up with reasons why a properly set up larger enclosure is better than a properly set up smaller enclosure, however we have to recognize that properly set up is not going to be the same for all species.

Right off the bat we can put out there that for primarily terrestrial species, leaf litter is important and moss is unimportant except for aesthetic purposes.

for the tinctorius group, bromeliads are not needed in the enclosure.. some form of hut for courtship and egg deposition is needed...

There are a lot more of these...

Ed

My feelings exactly. I think this could be a good discussion, but it seems most people get too defensive. Let us assume that if someone were capable of setting up an appropriate 10 gallon, they are capable of setting up a suitable larger tank as well.

The notes on terrestrial setups having correct planting and leaf litter alludes to my earlier comment on the fact. However, I feel if someone is going to insist on heavy planting either way, a 10 gallon can become far overgrown much more quickly and uncontrollably than a larger tank. That space can be choked out of a smaller tank much more easily, especially given many of the large/fast-growing plants many people (especially beginners) tend to use.

The lack of difference in condition between frogs kept in smaller vs. larger enclosures is also noted. However, I'll also put out the question of quality of life and mental stimulation. I've gotten more and more into this line of thought the past few years, and I've become increasingly convinced that mental stimulation is important to many animals, including frogs. That the increase in quality of life for a frog or pair of frogs when given access to a larger space with more varied microclimates, foraging options, etc. It's a concept that may prove impossible to really substantiate in reptiles and amphibians, but it seems to have become a standard for many mammals in zoological institutions, and I have certainly seen a difference in behavior with some reptiles that are more active/attentive, like Kunishir Island ratsnakes when given a larger, more natural enclosure. That while the physical needs of the frogs may be met, I don't think that we've really gotten into the understanding of the mental well-being of many of these animals.

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mantisdragon91

· #93 · Jun 27, 2011 (Edited)

poison beauties said:
Noted Roman, but what about the difference in a long term scenerio, and what about an unattended viv for a period of time. My guess is you will notice a difference.

Michael

Seeing as none of the tanks have a built in population of FFs I think they would starve equally quickly if left unattended. In terms of long term scenarios, all tanks in question have been going for longer than 18 months. I can only speculate what the impact would be on long term lifespan since we are nowhere near normal lifespan for any of the groups in question.

Ed

· #94 · Jun 27, 2011

JasonE said:
I'm a big fan of "bigger is better." but there is absolutely nothing wrong with a ten gallon for most species of tincs. I have an azureus pair breeding and living great in a ten gallon. I wouldn't put something as large as cobalts or terribilis in a ten, but most frogs are fine.

And where is this CO2 death coming from? I've never heard anyone have this problem. Maybe if your tank was air tight and had no plants at all... However, no tank is going to be air tight. And who builds a viv without plants? Finally, who doesn't touch their vivs for a week? My frogs like to eat, and I'd like them to live. You're not going to leave your frogs viv closed up for weeks. If you do, and the frogs are dead, it's from a lack of food, not CO2. This theory is utterly ridiculous.

There was an article published a while back in the Swedish Dendrobatid newsletter that was translated and published on the original British Dendrobatid site. The author was able to link CO2 to the deaths of some frogs in poorly ventilated enclosures.

The original article was titled CO2 dangers in the vivarium and the author was Thomas Falk.

I think there is a copy in the Frognet Archives and I believe I've cited it on here in the past.

Ed

Reactions: 1

JasonE

· #95 · Jun 27, 2011

Fair enough. I still say if you leave your frogs alone for a week or more, and they are dead, it's probably from a lack of food.

dravenxavier

· #96 · Jun 27, 2011

Perhaps due to the plants respiring during the night, depleting oxygen when there is no photosynthesis occurring.

poison beauties

· #97 · Jun 27, 2011

First off a CO2 build up can and will happen in an unventilated viv and even in vivs such as verts with vents with no air circulation. I have not had the issues myself as I have always as far back as 1999 used 55 gallons for tinc pairs/trios as well as my thumb groups. But it has happened.

Second man shit happens and if you have a life, kids, a wife and a shitload on your plate to get done the vivs can and will sit sometimes and there is no helping it when it comes to emergencies and such. There has not been an active dart community in ATL like other places so without help I can trust I like many have gone above and beyond with the use of microfauna. You dont really think I busted ass to put out good thriving mixed cultures for no reason do you? I could walk away from my vivs for a month and I guarantee you the frogs would not starve. In this hobby with a well documented reach for expanding the frogs diets beyond ff I see no reason a dart would starve if your doing you part. Unless maybe you have a pair of tincs in a 10 that destroy a micro fauna population because it doesnt happen in a larger established viv like that. This BS of frogs straving first is nothing but a detour from my statements on CO2 build up.

Michael

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Ed

· #98 · Jun 27, 2011

dravenxavier said:
My feelings exactly. I think this could be a good discussion, but it seems most people get too defensive. Let us assume that if someone were capable of setting up an appropriate 10 gallon, they are capable of setting up a suitable larger tank as well.

The notes on terrestrial setups having correct planting and leaf litter alludes to my earlier comment on the fact. However, I feel if someone is going to insist on heavy planting either way, a 10 gallon can become far overgrown much more quickly and uncontrollably than a larger tank. That space can be choked out of a smaller tank much more easily, especially given many of the large/fast-growing plants many people (especially beginners) tend to use.

The lack of difference in condition between frogs kept in smaller vs. larger enclosures is also noted. However, I'll also put out the question of quality of life and mental stimulation. I've gotten more and more into this line of thought the past few years, and I've become increasingly convinced that mental stimulation is important to many animals, including frogs. That the increase in quality of life for a frog or pair of frogs when given access to a larger space with more varied microclimates, foraging options, etc. It's a concept that may prove impossible to really substantiate in reptiles and amphibians, but it seems to have become a standard for many mammals in zoological institutions, and I have certainly seen a difference in behavior with some reptiles that are more active/attentive, like Kunishir Island ratsnakes when given a larger, more natural enclosure. That while the physical needs of the frogs may be met, I don't think that we've really gotten into the understanding of the mental well-being of many of these animals.

Well I just lost a long write up thanks to a backspace that jumped me three pages back instead of deleting the word I wanted to delete.

Given what you are interested in with respect to husbandry, I strongly suggest getting a copy of Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles as it talks about stress and in a roundabout way enrichment. There is a fine line between enrichment and stress which results in immune and hormone suppression.. Behaviors that can be interpreted as alertness may also be stress related so some care is often called for when going that route.

Keep in mind that sterotypy has not been documented for anurans with the exception of behaviors that result from critical stressors like excessively high temperatures. In any case we already do a lot with these frogs that would count as enrichment with mammals such as broadcast feeding, foraging, enviromental enrichnment (misting as an example)..

With respect to the comment about size differences, those have been noted between wild caught and captive bred animals not between the sizes of the enclosures. There has been several discussion on "poor quality frogs" and things to really consider with respect towards those frogs are based on how they are managed.. as an example, adult size is directly correlated with size when reproduction is reached with earlier reproducing adults staying smaller as resources are directed from growth to reproduction. This is an important point because virtually all of the frogs in the hobby are maintained in conditions which mimic conditions under which reproduction occurs year round even when those frogs would routinely undergo at least one and typically two non-breeding seasons in a yearly cycle. This husbandry method effectively prevents growth as the frogs are reproducing all year round..
As a second issue, most of the frogs until very recently were deficient in vitamin A, as all of the supplements used beta carotene as the source of vitamin A (due to bad information spread in the hobby), which it turns out that beta carotene is a poor source of A for the frogs. Other carotenoids are the most likely precursors in anurans. So we have diet and husbandry right off the bat as the two most likely causes of differences between wild caught and captive bred animals. There are other issues to be considered as well. I'm going to break this off as it is getting really long.. let me know if I missed something.

Ed

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Ed

· #99 · Jun 27, 2011

JasonE said:
Fair enough. I still say if you leave your frogs alone for a week or more, and they are dead, it's probably from a lack of food.

It should take more than a week for the vast majority of frogs to starve to death even in enclosures that are lacking in microfauna.

Ed

dravenxavier

· #100 · Jun 27, 2011

Ed said:
Well I just lost a long write up thanks to a backspace that jumped me three pages back instead of deleting the word I wanted to delete.

Given what you are interested in with respect to husbandry, I strongly suggest getting a copy of Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles as it talks about stress and in a roundabout way enrichment. There is a fine line between enrichment and stress which results in immune and hormone suppression.. Behaviors that can be interpreted as alertness may also be stress related so some care is often called for when going that route.

Keep in mind that sterotypy has not been documented for anurans with the exception of behaviors that result from critical stressors like excessively high temperatures. In any case we already do a lot with these frogs that would count as enrichment with mammals such as broadcast feeding, foraging, enviromental enrichnment (misting as an example)..
Ed

I think that it's not a matter of making them engage in their environment, but I feel it's an important option to have available should they so choose. Small tanks do not really give that option, nor do they really give a lot of options for finding a niche to hide or get out of the way on their own, but rather be restricted to whatever hides are provided (i.e. coco huts).

Reasonably, how many options can there be for a 2" frog in a 10x20" enclosure? I'll use my latest pumilio enclosure as an example. It's a standard 20 high, with a 1-1.5" thick background with 3 pieces of wood protruding from the background, and a couple jutting up out of the substrate, no plants, a 1.5" layer of leaf litter, and the higher pieces of wood support a cluster of 10+ fireball bromeliads that form a canopy midway up the tank. This gives multitudes of hiding places amongst the leaf litter, the driftwood along the back of the tank, and among the bromeliads, all of which are utilized when necessary. I feel (couldn't possibly know for sure, as I'm not a frog) that the various options allow for an increased level of comfort and enrichment, beyond what could be achieved in a smaller tank such as a 10 vert. Translate this to larger frogs, especially terrestrial ones that would find little use for such a canopy, and the problem seems somewhat exacerbated.

I concede that this way of doing things is not the only way, but I feel when talking about what's BEST for the animals, that the more options that are provided to them, the better for the frogs, and perhaps even better for the keeper as well.

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