Mixing Species Help!

11249 Views 132 Replies 32 Participants Last post by dravenxavier, Jun 29, 2011

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Discussion Starter · Jun 25, 2011

I am a beginner to the world of dart frogs, and am in the process of setting up a 12x12x18 vivarium. Ive heard a lot about the danger of un "pure" frogs and hybrids and am wondering why no one buys them/why they are a big deal? on a side note what would be a good number/type of dart frog (I dont want auratus

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Enlightened Rogue

· #41 · Jun 26, 2011 (Edited)

Holy Crap!!!!
I thought this thread was done when I went to bed last night and it only had like 6 posts.
Anyone besides me notice that the OP hasn`t posted?
Looks like we have another winner.

*Edit- of coarse, I only added to this nonsense with my post.

John

Reactions: 2

Woodsman

· #42 · Jun 26, 2011

Though I bet you ran right back to Rich to tell him about my post.

Believe me, I am not running from you (as you are unimportant to me). How I keep my frogs is MY business and not the business of the profundly misnamed "Dart Breeders Union". You keep your little club up in the rafters where it belongs!

I would say a lot more, but this is not in the Thunderdome.

Richard.

poison beauties said:
Sorry man, Rich, myself and others havent met for our quarterly ''What's wrong with Richard Lynch'' meeting. If you remember this issue wasnt about anyone but you and I. I asked you those questions repeatedly and you ran from them. I wont waste time, well too much time retrying. Still it wouldnt hurt to know why your packing your adult tincs into ten gallons with no will to go bigger. Seems like you settled for much less than the frogs deserve. You claim to be a guide for new hobbyists yet you lead with one of the worst examples.
I will hold back on this as I wasnt expecting to get into it. Just remember you brought up other people I kept it between you and I.

Michael

Allyn Loring

· #43 · Jun 26, 2011

Seems every time this gets brought up ,there is ALWAYS the question why not,that question,for some reason gets lost in between the verbal sparing,like it was never asked !!
People treat the question like its stupid to ask, why would you even bother to ask it, go use the search button.I've read some of those threads. The question inevitably ,if it is answered, gets LOST in the rocks being thrown around! After sifting through pages of that kind of content all the time I GIVE up !
I do tell you this I would not want to be duped by someone selling a Hybrid !
For I would not only, not trust myself again for some time, the seller I would never trust again!Ever!Be that a bit of the answer!
I also think of the mix breed thing like this-------I have an acre of land I build my house on it and move in. My neighbor buys the acre next door , and builds his house. The property lines are documented- a fence is erected on that property line.If one of us were to move that fence onto the others property ..........ooooooooh boy !
Each of us sets the line in the sand for ourselves!I myself will never mix or hybridize! That is my line!
I do not envy the mods or owner(s)? of this site, viewing topics of this kind for they sit at a very precarious perch indeed!

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Reactions: 1

Ed

· #44 · Jun 26, 2011

Enlightened Rogue said:
Holy Crap!!!!
I thought this thread was done when I went to bed last night and it only had like 6 posts.
Anyone besides me notice that the OP hasn`t posted?
Looks like we have another winner.

*Edit- of coarse, I only added to this nonsense with my post.

John

hi John,

I commented on the fact that he logged in as "new" and checked it more than an hour afterwards. I'm sure he/she is reading it without logging in and being amused.

Ed

· #45 · Jun 26, 2011

Woodsman said:
Though I bet you ran right back to Rich to tell him about my post.

Believe me, I am not running from you (as you are unimportant to me). How I keep my frogs is MY business and not the business of the profundly misnamed "Dart Breeders Union". You keep your little club up in the rafters where it belongs!

I would say a lot more, but this is not in the Thunderdome.

Richard.

Richard,

How does this help the thread? It is clear that both you and Poison Beauties have an axe to grind.. but is this really the thread to grind that axe?

Reactions: 1

Ed

· #46 · Jun 26, 2011

ChrisK said:
*I CAN'T SPEAK FOR NON EGG FEEDERS*

With that out of the way, I can't see 10 gals being successful for many of the morphs I keep with regards to breeding and rearing successful offspring.

Hi Chris,

How do you know that this isn't an artifact due to a poor understanding of one or more needs of the frog?
For example, it is documented in the literature that some obligate eggfeeders populations due to available resources can have reduced territories (see Lotter's book for a picture of this with pumilio) and much higher densities, yet the hobby has little understanding of how this works in the wild or an ability to recreat it.
As a second example, the issue with some obligate froglets having a high mortality rate before the age of 6 months really speaks towards a lack of understanding of some requirement. In reality froglets should be able to be treated similarly to adults. The fact that this doesn't tend to be the case, speaks to our lacking some understanding of thier needs.

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dravenxavier

· #47 · Jun 26, 2011

Seriously, almost afraid to post in this thread with all the hostility

There are a few debates popping up in here at once, but I'm most intrigued by the tank size debate. Maybe there's just something I'm not seeing, but what are the actual benefits of smaller? It seems that it makes for a much more sensitive system with the lack of temperature and humidity gradients, and perhaps more stress for the frogs involved. But the argument for it seems to be if you're careful, it can be done. But in that case, what's really the point of doing it? Why not just give them more space? I'm not sure I see a down side in that.

And for those who say "well, how am I supposed to give a 29/30/40 gallon for all of my dozens of frogs?" or "I can only afford a 10 gallon tank" I think that it comes down to knowing where to stop...or whether to not even begin at the moment.

But then, just my opinion, and admittedly I have nothing I can cite to back it up other than personal experience. Not looking for flames, here, but I am very interested in this particular part of the debate.

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Mapp

· #48 · Jun 26, 2011

New said:
I am a beginner to the world of dart frogs, and am in the process of setting up a 12x12x18 vivarium. Ive heard a lot about the danger of un "pure" frogs and hybrids and am wondering why no one buys them/why they are a big deal? on a side note what would be a good number/type of dart frog (I dont want auratus )

Well, In a 12x12x18, You could probably keep a medium sized group of tincs, seven or eight pums, three or four Mystis', and maybe a pair or two of dwarf velociraptors. Oh, and don't forget the flock of sheep you'll need to keep in there, the velociraptors get hungry often.

Brotherly Monkey

· #49 · Jun 26, 2011

dravenxavier said:
But then, just my opinion, and admittedly I have nothing I can cite to back it up other than personal experience. Not looking for flames, here, but I am very interested in this particular part of the debate.

my point here is that if it's simply your opinion, then one shouldn't be treating it like holy writ

Woodsman

· #50 · Jun 26, 2011

The person in question here has already been banned from Db once for harassing me with precisely the question he puts forward here (yet again attempting to harass me). I have no intention of allowing him to defame me on Db by suggesting that I am not a good frogger. My house is open to anyone at (almost) anytime.

Richard.

Ed said:
Richard,

How does this help the thread? It is clear that both you and Poison Beauties have an axe to grind.. but is this really the thread to grind that axe?

poison beauties

· #51 · Jun 26, 2011

If anyone has a better idea on how 10 gallons should be managed for tinc breeding Im all ears, My idea on it is they should not be used. Its simple, you can not tell me that a larger viv say 20-55 gallons is not easier to maintain. There will be aggression/ territorial issues, stagnant water and drainage issues, ventilation issues as well as may fewer options for plants and other viv decor. You can not do any better with a ten gallon than a larger viv. Again if it cost you a couple hundred bucks for the frogs and you cant afford a bigger viv maybe this hobby isnt for you as its a hobby that costs with the needed diet and other supplies involved. The viv is just about the cheapest part of this hobby especially when there are $1 per gallon sales at petco.

Richard thunderdome or not keep it up and I wil hurt your feelings on this. Do I need to pull up the videos from recent wars? You just said its your business what you do with your frogs and vivs yes but when your using them as examples and you value yourself as a teacher to new hobbyists and outsiders who form opinions on this hobby easily expect counter points on the subject. You can not tell me you have better outcomes with you frogs in tens than you would larger vivs. You seem to be based more as a business than a hobbyist as far as I can tell by your practices. Im very surprised your not keeping tinc pairs in 190oz containers so you can stack them in and get more of them. Good luck with it Im out.,.

Michael

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Reactions: 2

Brotherly Monkey

· #52 · Jun 26, 2011

poison beauties said:
If anyone has a better idea on how 10 gallons should be managed for tinc breeding Im all ears, My idea on it is they should not be used. Its simple, you can not tell me that a larger viv say 20-55 gallons is not easier to maintain.

The point is that unless you can show, with actual facts and research, that a method that has been used for years is detrimental in someway, then it's nothing more than your mere opinion. And standing up and stating your opinion is sacrosanct, and somehow should be adopted by all members of the hobby, is silly.

Personally, I think the general plant selections, husbandry, and lighting used in the hobby suck. But being that it's my personal preference I'm not berating people for not conforming to my standards. Because I understand such behavior would make me look like a dogmatic douche

Reactions: 2

Tony

· #53 · Jun 26, 2011

Brotherly Monkey said:
The point is that unless you can show, with actual facts and research, that a method that has been used for years is detrimental in someway, then it's nothing more than your mere opinion. And standing up and stating your opinion is sacrosanct, and somehow should be adopted by all members of the hobby, is silly.

Look at all the complaints about tincs being tiny compared to years past. It could be caused by any number of deficiencies in husbandry but cramming them into the smallest viv possible certainly can't be helping the situation.

Eric Walker

· #54 · Jun 26, 2011

The phrase puppy mill comes to mind.....

Ed

· #55 · Jun 26, 2011

dravenxavier said:
There are a few debates popping up in here at once, but I'm most intrigued by the tank size debate. Maybe there's just something I'm not seeing, but what are the actual benefits of smaller? It seems that it makes for a much more sensitive system with the lack of temperature and humidity gradients, and perhaps more stress for the frogs involved. But the argument for it seems to be if you're careful, it can be done. But in that case, what's really the point of doing it? Why not just give them more space? I'm not sure I see a down side in that.
where to stop...

I'm willing to have a reasonable discussion on it. The thing that is most commonly skipped over is that a well set up smaller enclosure can be a lot better for a frog than a poorly set up larger enclosure. Now don't get me wrong, I'm an advocate for larger enclosures but the level of dogma around this topic is becoming very tedious.

We can start with some history.. up until about 2004, the iron clad rule that many in the hobby dictated was 5 gallons/frog particularly when setting up groups of frogs in larger sized enclosures. At that time, virtually all of the commonly used enclosures were aquariums which were designed for an animal (fish) because they used 3 dimensions. To cut the explanation short (you can read the whole argument here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html) as the size of the enclosures increased, the available area for the frogs decreased due to larger volumes of space that were not accessiable to the frogs (as they can't float or fly).

In reality, the territorial needs of an animal are determined by how seperate different resources are needed for the animal. In this case we are looking at egg deposition, calling perches, (in some species) mate guarding, and tadpole deposition sites. Dendrobatids do not appear to guard feeding areas.

The closer these are provided to one another, the smaller the resulting territory as there is less need to defend a larger area (saving important metabolic needs) from other competitors.

This is why it is important to understand why resource allocation is important when setting up an enclosure.

If the frogs are provided with shelters in which they can hide, then stress is typically not an issue.

One of the bigger issues, is that people may ignore the needs of the animals and set up aesthetically pleasing enclosures which are often considered to be a status symbol in the local hobby with both unofficial and (occasionally) official competitions. These enclosures often are planted to the point that primarily leaf litter species are obstructed from being able to move readily.

That should be a good starting point.

Reactions: 2

Ed

· #56 · Jun 26, 2011

Tony said:
Look at all the complaints about tincs being tiny compared to years past. It could be caused by any number of deficiencies in husbandry but cramming them into the smallest viv possible certainly can't be helping the situation.

On what basis is placing them in a ten gallon tank going to induce a smaller size? Hwo is this not like the pet store employee telling someone that a burmese python will only grow to the size of the enclosure...

I would suggest looking at feeding, humidity, photoperiod, and planting before we look at size of the enclosure.

Ed

· #57 · Jun 26, 2011

Brotherly Monkey said:
my point here is that if it's simply your opinion, then one shouldn't be treating it like holy writ

Hi BM,

I don't think this poster was acting like it was writ. He was actually asking why to get information.

Ed

Brotherly Monkey

· #58 · Jun 26, 2011

Ed said:
Hi BM,

I don't think this poster was acting like it was writ. He was actually asking why to get information.

Ed

Maybe I was wording that poorly, but the "treating like holy writ" wasn't directed at him, but was more an attempt to explain my basis for questioning the claim regarding 10 gallon tanks.

Reactions: 1

Ed

· #59 · Jun 26, 2011

Woodsman said:
The person in question here has already been banned from Db once for harassing me with precisely the question he puts forward here (yet again attempting to harass me). I have no intention of allowing him to defame me on Db by suggesting that I am not a good frogger. My house is open to anyone at (almost) anytime.

Richard.

Then instead of whacking around with an ax in a thread in a totally OT manner, either invite them to the dome or take it up with a moderator. Neither of you should have been throwing axes while others who have no part of the problem are in the way.

The forum has a rule about treatment of others, baiting and both of you have violated it in my opinion. Be glad I'm not a moderator...

Woodsman

· #60 · Jun 26, 2011

I really appreciate it when a member takes the time to actually threaten me before they make the insults.

Richard.

poison beauties said:
If anyone has a better idea on how 10 gallons should be managed for tinc breeding Im all ears, My idea on it is they should not be used. Its simple, you can not tell me that a larger viv say 20-55 gallons is not easier to maintain. There will be aggression/ territorial issues, stagnant water and drainage issues, ventilation issues as well as may fewer options for plants and other viv decor. You can not do any better with a ten gallon than a larger viv. Again if it cost you a couple hundred bucks for the frogs and you cant afford a bigger viv maybe this hobby isnt for you as its a hobby that costs with the needed diet and other supplies involved. The viv is just about the cheapest part of this hobby especially when there are $1 per gallon sales at petco.

Richard thunderdome or not keep it up and I wil hurt your feelings on this. Do I need to pull up the videos from recent wars? You just said its your business what you do with your frogs and vivs yes but when your using them as examples and you value yourself as a teacher to new hobbyists and outsiders who form opinions on this hobby easily expect counter points on the subject. You can not tell me you have better outcomes with you frogs in tens than you would larger vivs. You seem to be based more as a business than a hobbyist as far as I can tell by your practices. Im very surprised your not keeping tinc pairs in 190oz containers so you can stack them in and get more of them. Good luck with it Im out.,.

Michael

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