[Woodsman]

Dear man made of jelly,

If you were honest, you would confess that you do have an axe to grind.

Signed, a man not made of jelly.

You must not read any of the debates. I think it is great that hobbiest want to maintain pure lines. I think there is plenty of room in this hobby for both. I have never tried to pursuade any of the "non mixers" to do anything differently with ther frogs. So who exactly am I trying to make conform to "my beliefs"? I give out advise to those that ask based on my experience. If they choose to mix great if not then no skin off my nose. I just do not think that false statements are acceptable to justify an opinion.

 

[Ed]

The Simpsons Videos - Electric Shock Aversion Therapy - Zimbio

 

[Woodsman]

You are such the defamatory little scoundrel! I bet you get extra rations of gruel from Rich Frye tonight! (or maybe an extra Robalo Pumilio).

You are so see through. I hope no one notices the little emperor has no clothes!

Richard.

Absolutely, You are spot on about the hybrid issues. I noticed though my take on packing frogs into small vivs went unanswered by you again. Whats this question #how many thousand.......You talk and teach regularly on cramming tinc pairs into tens and yet you go after another person involved in a heated issue? Your as big a hypocrite as any of us.
Im really surprised you didnt tell the OP to message you about how many frogs really can fit into a small viv. You seem to be the poster boy of that war....

Yeah I know I just fanned the flames too. But Im special......
Michael

 

[ZookeeperDoug]

7/10 This thread delivers

AFK - Grabbing popcorn.

I always wonder when I join a new forum what the flame wars on them will be about. I've posted on forums about everything from online gaming to import tuner cars. Some things never change.

I'm assuming that the forums use ip logging. Would be interesting to see who grabbed a "NEW" user name under which to commit forum arson. Unless they're really cleaver and are using some ip spoofing or multiple ip addresses to post.

 

[ChrisK]

Wow a BM finally made a great contribution to a FROG thread......

 

[ZookeeperDoug]

Wow a BM finally made a great contribution to a FROG thread......

BM? (ten letters)

 

[Brotherly Monkey]

Wow a BM finally made a great contribution to a FROG thread......

**blushes**

 

[poison beauties]

You are such the defamatory little scoundrel! I bet you get extra rations of gruel from Rich Frye tonight! (or maybe an extra Robalo Pumilio).

You are so see through. I hope no one notices the little emperor has no clothes!

Richard.

Sorry man, Rich, myself and others havent met for our quarterly ''What's wrong with Richard Lynch'' meeting. If you remember this issue wasnt about anyone but you and I. I asked you those questions repeatedly and you ran from them. I wont waste time, well too much time retrying. Still it wouldnt hurt to know why your packing your adult tincs into ten gallons with no will to go bigger. Seems like you settled for much less than the frogs deserve. You claim to be a guide for new hobbyists yet you lead with one of the worst examples.
I will hold back on this as I wasnt expecting to get into it. Just remember you brought up other people I kept it between you and I.

Michael

 

[Brotherly Monkey]

Sorry man, Rich, myself and others havent met for our quarterly ''What's wrong with Richard Lynch'' meeting. If you remember this issue wasnt about anyone but you and I. I asked you those questions repeatedly and you ran from them. I wont waste time, well too much time retrying. Still it wouldnt hurt to know why your packing your adult tincs into ten gallons with no will to go bigger. Seems like you settled for much less than the frogs deserve. You claim to be a guide for new hobbyists yet you lead with one of the worst examples.
I will hold back on this as I wasnt expecting to get into it. Just remember you brought up other people I kept it between you and I.

Michael

So is this a position you have landed at with research, or just your personal opinion?

If it's the later, then it strikes me as a bit counter productive to treat as some unassailable truth

 

[poison beauties]

So is this a position you have landed at with research, or just your personal opinion?

If it's the later, then it strikes me as a bit counter productive to treat as some unassailable truth

Im basing it on Richards words as wel as our very public past debates. I have nothing but respect for those who help to teach the new hobbyists but you need to lead by example. You cant jump on a thread and go after people over a hot topic when your guilty of being one yourself.

Michael

 

[Brotherly Monkey]

Im basing it on Richards words as wel as our very public past debates. I have nothing but respect for those who help to teach the new hobbyists but you need to lead by example. You cant jump on a thread and go after people over a hot topic when your guilty of being one yourself.

Michael

No, I am speaking of housing tincs in 10 gallon tanks, and what you think the frogs "deserve"

Is this actually based on anything more than your preference?

 

[poison beauties]

No, I am speaking of housing tincs in 10 gallon tanks, and what you think the frogs "deserve"

Is this actually based on anything more than your preference?

well I'd rather repeat this to Richard for a responce but this is just as good. Tell me this though, why would you want 50 ten gallons of tinc pairs? Seems most hobbyists would rather have say a dozen 40 gallons setup nice with the pairs. Its not like it would cost any more to do.

When your packing tinc pairs into tens it comes out to very little space per frog. Once plants, hides, soil and whatever else gos into the viv there is no space. Most give a thumb pair more space. We as a hobby for the most part have expressed its not for the best as it does increase the risk of an elevated parasite load. Air circulation, humidity and drainage issues also occur regularly.

Michael

 

[thedude]

You must not read any of the debates. I think it is great that hobbiest want to maintain pure lines. I think there is plenty of room in this hobby for both.

if your saying there is room in the hobby for both hybrids (and crossbreeds for those of you that consider them different) and pure line frogs then exactly how do you figure this? considering the hobby isnt even big enough to keep all the species and populations around that have come in over the years, id say there is no where near enough room.

 

[Ed]

Seems most hobbyists would rather have say a dozen 40 gallons setup nice with the pairs. Its not like it would cost any more to do.

These spatial "needs" arguments are getting tedious.

When your packing tinc pairs into tens it comes out to very little space per frog. Once plants, hides, soil and whatever else gos into the viv there is no space. Most give a thumb pair more space. We as a hobby for the most part have expressed its not for the best as it does increase the risk of an elevated parasite load. Air circulation, humidity and drainage issues also occur regularly.

Michae l

Spatial needs of the frogs are based on resource allocation. You can actually end up with less usable space per frog in a larger enclosure if a person isn't careful..., a simple argument on space isn't valid... as an example, a 30 foot by 30 foot enclosure with no shelter on the floor except for a small 12 square inch spot which is the only area kept moist in the enclosure is less usable space per frog than many smaller enclosures.

With respect to the parasite argument, on what is this based? How do you know that there won't be the same density in a larger enclosure? On what are you assuming that larger enclosures won't end up with higher densities of parasites such as lungworms which have a freeliving reproductive form?

The whole "most give" argument is a problem as "most" isn't even a percentage...

The whole larger is better argument is usually presented without explaining how resource allocation works. It is simply tossed out there as a "minimum spatial need"argument and passed along with many other folklorish beliefs in the hobby. It is usually cited without any valid supporting information only a mishmash of beliefs by rote repetition of adherents.

There is a long history of using ten gallon tanks both by the hobby and by institutions that is consistently being ignored by many of the bigger is better crowd.. there has been success with many dendrobatids for a much longer time than most of you have ever been in the hobby. Those tanks were the standard for going on more than 20 years.


Can larger enclosures be better, yes, if they are designed properly.
Can they be worse than smaller enclosures? Absolutely.

As I have stated in the beginning, the whole spatial argument is getting very tedious.. if anyone is going to make the argument on spatial needs, then they should also be able to explain what it means and why instead of spouting unsupported "facts".

 

[Ed]

As usual in these threads, a flame war has started, personal grudges have been pulled out into the open, disparaging comments tossed about..all for what benefit?

Anyone feeling better about themselves yet? Counted coup yet?

 

[Brotherly Monkey]

well I'd rather repeat this to Richard for a responce but this is just as good. Tell me this though, why would you want 50 ten gallons of tinc pairs? Seems most hobbyists would rather have say a dozen 40 gallons setup nice with the pairs. Its not like it would cost any more to do.

When your packing tinc pairs into tens it comes out to very little space per frog. Once plants, hides, soil and whatever else gos into the viv there is no space. Most give a thumb pair more space. We as a hobby for the most part have expressed its not for the best as it does increase the risk of an elevated parasite load. Air circulation, humidity and drainage issues also occur regularly.

Michael

Honestly, I'm really not concerned about what the "hobby" is expressing, or wants. I'm asking if there is any basis for what you are stating her, beyond your preferences. And the answer seems to be no

Which brings us back to my original point: since this is based on nothing more than mere opinion, doesn't it strike you as counter productive to treat such as a set of unassailable rules?

 

[Ross]

I love this forum

 

[Dendroguy]

I laughed my arse(yeah I said it,arse)off in that last post.

 

[ChrisK]

*I CAN'T SPEAK FOR NON EGG FEEDERS*

With that out of the way, I can't see 10 gals being successful for many of the morphs I keep with regards to breeding and rearing successful offspring.

 

[ChrisK]

As usual in these threads, a flame war has started, personal grudges have been pulled out into the open, disparaging comments tossed about..all for what benefit?

Anyone feeling better about themselves yet? Counted coup yet?

Yeah it's actually a GREAT way to get arguments started and hijacks going in all kinds of directions