)Along these lines, if people bothered to check out his cp page, one can readily see that he has checked out the thread to see if the flame war has started....So really? A first post that includes so many inflammatory topics? Someone that appears to have read enough to ask about mixing and then doesn't know not to put desired frogs in a 12x12x18? Really?
These spatial "needs" arguments are getting tedious.Seems most hobbyists would rather have say a dozen 40 gallons setup nice with the pairs. Its not like it would cost any more to do.
Spatial needs of the frogs are based on resource allocation. You can actually end up with less usable space per frog in a larger enclosure if a person isn't careful..., a simple argument on space isn't valid... as an example, a 30 foot by 30 foot enclosure with no shelter on the floor except for a small 12 square inch spot which is the only area kept moist in the enclosure is less usable space per frog than many smaller enclosures.When your packing tinc pairs into tens it comes out to very little space per frog. Once plants, hides, soil and whatever else gos into the viv there is no space. Most give a thumb pair more space. We as a hobby for the most part have expressed its not for the best as it does increase the risk of an elevated parasite load. Air circulation, humidity and drainage issues also occur regularly.
Michae l
hi John,Holy Crap!!!!
I thought this thread was done when I went to bed last night and it only had like 6 posts.
Anyone besides me notice that the OP hasn`t posted?
Looks like we have another winner.
*Edit- of coarse, I only added to this nonsense with my post.
John
Richard,Though I bet you ran right back to Rich to tell him about my post.
Believe me, I am not running from you (as you are unimportant to me). How I keep my frogs is MY business and not the business of the profundly misnamed "Dart Breeders Union". You keep your little club up in the rafters where it belongs!
I would say a lot more, but this is not in the Thunderdome.
Richard.
Hi Chris,*I CAN'T SPEAK FOR NON EGG FEEDERS*
With that out of the way, I can't see 10 gals being successful for many of the morphs I keep with regards to breeding and rearing successful offspring.
I'm willing to have a reasonable discussion on it. The thing that is most commonly skipped over is that a well set up smaller enclosure can be a lot better for a frog than a poorly set up larger enclosure. Now don't get me wrong, I'm an advocate for larger enclosures but the level of dogma around this topic is becoming very tedious.There are a few debates popping up in here at once, but I'm most intrigued by the tank size debate. Maybe there's just something I'm not seeing, but what are the actual benefits of smaller? It seems that it makes for a much more sensitive system with the lack of temperature and humidity gradients, and perhaps more stress for the frogs involved. But the argument for it seems to be if you're careful, it can be done. But in that case, what's really the point of doing it? Why not just give them more space? I'm not sure I see a down side in that.
where to stop...
On what basis is placing them in a ten gallon tank going to induce a smaller size? Hwo is this not like the pet store employee telling someone that a burmese python will only grow to the size of the enclosure...Look at all the complaints about tincs being tiny compared to years past. It could be caused by any number of deficiencies in husbandry but cramming them into the smallest viv possible certainly can't be helping the situation.
Hi BM,my point here is that if it's simply your opinion, then one shouldn't be treating it like holy writ
The person in question here has already been banned from Db once for harassing me with precisely the question he puts forward here (yet again attempting to harass me). I have no intention of allowing him to defame me on Db by suggesting that I am not a good frogger. My house is open to anyone at (almost) anytime.
Richard.
If anyone has a better idea on how 10 gallons should be managed for tinc breeding Im all ears, My idea on it is they should not be used. Its simple, you can not tell me that a larger viv say 20-55 gallons is not easier to maintain. There will be aggression/ territorial issues, stagnant water and drainage issues, ventilation issues as well as may fewer options for plants and other viv decor. You can not do any better with a ten gallon than a larger viv. Again if it cost you a couple hundred bucks for the frogs and you cant afford a bigger viv maybe this hobby isnt for you as its a hobby that costs with the needed diet and other supplies involved. The viv is just about the cheapest part of this hobby especially when there are $1 per gallon sales at petco.
What I just said about Richard and the axes applies just as much to you Michael. The issue between the two of you should not be here on this part of the forum.Richard thunderdome or not keep it up and I wil hurt your feelings on this. Do I need to pull up the videos from recent wars? You just said its your business what you do with your frogs and vivs yes but when your using them as examples and you value yourself as a teacher to new hobbyists and outsiders who form opinions on this hobby easily expect counter points on the subject. You can not tell me you have better outcomes with you frogs in tens than you would larger vivs. You seem to be based more as a business than a hobbyist as far as I can tell by your practices. Im very surprised your not keeping tinc pairs in 190oz containers so you can stack them in and get more of them. Good luck with it Im out.,.
Michael
I'm going to pare this down a little for brevity's sake. If I missed something you felt was important, it wasn't intentional.All good points. Part of the differences in opinion may stem from different groups of frogs being kept by different people. A 40 gallon breeder with leaf litter and some sparse planting would be far more useful for a pair of terrestrial frogs vs. a 40 vert with a heavily planted back wall, which would be more useful for a pair of Oophaga or thumbs.
This being said...if a particular person is prone to setting up an improper larger tank, then what would the odds be of the same person setting up a proper smaller tank, which is more sensitive and less forgiving in it's various parameters. Meaning, if someone could set up a 10 gallon that could (for argument's sake) work for a pair of tincs, then the same person should, in the best assumption, be able to set up a larger tank that would also be well suited (better suited?) to the species.
To me, it then comes down to a "we can, but should we?" sort of thing. I feel like it almost boils down to a competition to see who can keep and breed their frogs in the smallest given space, which just doesn't sit right with me. Or, fitting the largest number of frogs in the allotted space, which also doesn't really sit right with me. Again, though, all opinion.
And I asked you to justify that statement. Please supply an argument by which that would reduce size in a dendrobatid...I didn't say that it was, only that it was a possible contributor.
What waste products? Where is it accumulating?Simple common sense dictates that a larger space will be more stable than a smaller one, taking longer to accumulate waste products and providing more surface area for beneficial microfauna.
Actually this is an incorrect assumption. To use an extreme example, I have a 30 foot by 30 foot room in which I place a pair of frogs and I only place leaf litter and plants in one area which is 10 inches by 10 inches and that is the only area that I supply water how is this better than a ten gallon tank that is set up properly?As has been brought up already, someone who can't design a suitable large viv won't be any better at designing a small one, but at least the larger one will be better to a small degree simply by the increased surface area.
It is often a neutral factor but if you are comparing improperly set up larger enclosures versus smaller properly set up enclosures it no longer is neutral but a positive.A small enclosure is at best a neutral factor in husbandry, but more likely to be a negative. Why not push for something better than "probably good enough"?
Actually it isn't an argue over semantics, you threw an "reason" into the ring on why smaller tanks are inferior and were asked to justify it. Now you are dodging the question by claiming it is semantics. At this moment your example has as much validity as claiming it is because they put a traffic light outside of your room.I have no interest in arguing semantics over common sense. Of course a 30'x30' room with a 100 in^2 area of leaf litter would be inadequate, but that is an absurd example of arguing just for the sake of arguing and I won't waste my time.
Interesting, if you are claiming froglets are the bottom line, then you are validating the 20 plus years those enclosures were used to churn out froglets .... so again your position breaks down.When it comes down to it, I will take advice from guys like Chris K. and Rich Frye who actually have results to show over theory. Froglets trump "theoretically good enough", and if that's not good enough because they haven't been published in a journal that charges $15 to read each article then so be it, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I've read this entire thread only because I have some time to kill before work. Sure did bounce all over the place...
Nobody will ever convince me that a 10g tank is ok for Tincs. Bigger is better IMO. Short and sweet. You can argue about it all week long.
My 2 cents
I get it and I don't have a problem with it. It's just the dogmatic and parroted arguments and reasons that get to me...Hey Ed,
Yeah I know some people are successful with pumilio in 10 g's, one guy in PA used to get pretty good production out of lots of pum morphs in 10 verts, I wouldn't do it myself though, some people also report production from them in qt containers and deli cups during transport, so who really knows.
I was talking more about the histrionicus/sylvaticus, SO MUCH anectodal stuff from the people with the most experience with them (as well as an anecdotal euro study) shows that the only real way we know of so far to get steady successful CB adults out of them is for the most part leaving the froglets in the tank with the parents until at least 5-6 months (or in some rare cases, leaving them in the tank they morphed in which is another discussion), one of my pairs can produce sometimes 5-7 froglets out of the water within a month of each other, the only way I can feel comfortable is with them in a larger tank (obviously set up correctly) - as well as seeing that they always choose the largest of broms to sleep/deposit in - they may choose the smaller ones or film cans if given no choice though, so anyway like I said I can't really picture any real kind of success with those in 10 g's.
With all due respect, then why are we arguing or trying to prove that a 20 is better than a ten. It's not something that can be proven now is it... So all this arguing is pointless then too...
It's simple, they have more elbow room...Anyone that looks at a pair of Tincs in a ten can see that they could use some more room.
I don't get this at all...
Why? Like I said before, all you have to do is look at 2 Tincs in a ten and see that they could use some more room. So, if people say a ten is to small, why to they have to back it up?
My wife and I sleep in a queen size bed. A double is to small. Do I have to prove that too?
Just saying...
and off to work I go
