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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I recently posted some questions on the board in the parts section and have become the target of the firing squad. Apparently the mixing of species isn't tolerated. But I have been mixing species of herps for a long time.(well about 8 years) i understand that it isn't recomended but i have had nothing but success. My current mix is this; 2 rhampholeon bravicaudatus( 1 male, 1 female), 3 painted mantella, and a peacock day gecko(he's a male if it makes any difference). All are in a 25 long aquarium and have been there for at least 7 months. Today i finished my 70 gallon up and I am waiting for a cobalt tinc that will join the others later when he is larger.
What i am wondering is if anyone has really tried and also had success and enjoyed the variety. and what i can't comprehend is that why everyone just dismisses the fact and calls me neglegent to not
Ryan said:
Spend the extra effort to care for them and put htem in their own enclosure.
To me it seems like there is minimal stress because nothing had died and all are very bold when exploring the environment. I myself think that all my animals remain active because of the cagemates and are provoked to interact. I pay close attention to all my herps and moniter them and seperate if i see a problem, but so far all my herps are great eaters( i feed everyday) and my male mantella is calling alot.
what i am hoping to recieve is good news on this and not a verbal bashing. if you cant say something nice............................... then shut up.
Well i thought i would post this message on the advanced board because i would assume that some of you might have experience in this area and could maybe see my point of view.
 

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You've already gotten the news that you'll keep getting.

You must enjoy pain though.

s
k2bordr03 said:
... what i am hoping to recieve is good news on this and not a verbal bashing. if you cant say something nice............................... then shut up.
 
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In the past I have mixed several things, but not to the extent you have. I have seen Phelsuma eating E. tricolor sub-adults-- so that's one I don't like; except in things like P. klemmeri. I know people have also mixed P. laticauda (though that was the one who ate my friend's E. tricolor), P. guimbeaui, and some of the other high humidity Phelsuma. I've never mixed chameleons, nor would I ever in that small of a tank.

As far as stress goes, I like Ed K's description that was posted on frognet some time back (which we discussed on a drive later on). I think if you cut back on half of the animals in the mix, it would be more productive. I loosely advocate mixing, but on more strict guidelines.
j
 

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If you are not interested in breeding any of the darts that you are mixing and can provide a large enough enclosure (large enough is of course subjective) you can probably keep the inhabitants alive and possibly even "happy". Just keep a very close eye for signs of stress like always cowering in the same corner, constantly climbing the walls, not coming out to feed, etc. Just keep in mind that even a 90 gallon tank is tiny compared to your backyard, which is tiny compared to an acre of rainforest.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
thanks

im glad that someone on this board actually can agree with me to some extent. but a word of wisdom: chameleons stress really easy and i lost my gravid female today :( . my diagnosis of the situation is that i put her in the new tank to fast and now i must face the pain of losing my female. as for the rest of the cage my mantellas are loving it and the gecko just cant stay off those glass walls. my poor male chameleon will have no mate but oh well. one is enough to worry about in 70 gallons of a tropical haven.
 
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You lost that Cham because it got stressed out from the others in the tank!
spot on. chams are extremely solitary animals, apart from pigmy and rudis which can tolerate another of the opposite sex.

my diagnosis of the situation is that i put her in the new tank to fast and now i must face the pain of losing my female
thats an extremely stupid diagnosis. laughable. chameleons should NEVER be kept in a glass tank of any kind. the reflection given by the glass will give the chameleon the impression that there is another chameleon on its territory, thus stressing it out. chameleons hide any signs of illness untill its too late generally. also, the main factor... ventilation, chameleons need at LEAST 3/4 of the viv screened as they are prone to upper respiritory infection, keeping them in such a humid environment like darts require will also lead to respiritory infection.
i hope you take into concideration the death of your female chameleon before even thinking of owning another one. it really isnt fair on the animals what your putting them through.
the only side i can see to mixing species is purely a selfish side unless its for research obviously. the animals dont get anything out of it. they may tolerate eachother but no real good can come from it.


what i am hoping to recieve is good news on this and not a verbal bashing
do you honestly think thats what you will receive when you blatantly disregard the animals well being and advice of others?

i could post so much more but i have better things to do than shout at the idiocy of incapable keepers.

shame on you
 
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Dont u guys think ure a little harsh. Let k2bordr03 learn forom his mistake and give him some KIND advice after all that is what the board is for, but relax. 8)
 

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arena said:
You lost that Cham because it got stressed out from the others in the tank!
spot on. chams are extremely solitary animals, apart from pigmy and rudis which can tolerate another of the opposite sex.
Umm, he said in another post he had pygmy chams. I agree that housing them in a glass tank is inappropriate for chameleons, from what I know about them. I've never kept one and am not familiar with pygmies.

And I also agree that stress was probably a factor in the cham's death, since all the animals were housed in a 20 gallon long previously.

But let's not string him up and gut him like a fish.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
This is a reply for you Arena.
first thing: next time you post try to do a little research before posting your own "idiocy"
second thing: i am not some kid who just hap hazardly throws a bunch of animals in a tank. i look for specific species and suit the individuals needs.
third: i am doing my own research on the interactions of all my herps. watching the interactions between the species and gathering information on all of them.
fourth: I dont need yours, or anybody elses, approval of my actions, nor do i need the "ima knowitall" speech.
if you are a herpetologist or veternarian you can post what you opinion is.
i have close contacts with both where i live and both have told me that my research was fine and with what i was trying to do and should be able to learn alot from each individual.
as for your comment on not owning another chameleon, i still have my male. he is a great eater and is healthier than when i got him. my diagnosis of the death of my female was not exact because i didn't know you were such an expert. i had my local herpetologist look at it and it had actually died because of the cage change. the females are more sensitive to transition. she went from a 25 gal to a 70 gal. so next time you decide to attack another person on this board why dont you just stop while you are ahead.
 
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first thing: next time you post try to do a little research before posting your own "idiocy"
please quote my "idiocy" and lack of knowledge in my first post.

second thing: i am not some kid who just hap hazardly throws a bunch of animals in a tank. i look for specific species and suit the individuals needs.
i see a contradiction there, what you HAVE done is hazardly thrown a bunch of animals in a tank. hence the chams death.

third: i am doing my own research on the interactions of all my herps. watching the interactions between the species and gathering information on all of them.
when i said for research, i was aimin toward official projects,books etc. not some guy that doesnt seem to comprehend what he is doing to the animals.

fourth: I dont need yours, or anybody elses, approval of my actions, nor do i need the "ima knowitall" speech.
correct you dont need anyones approval, but by such a large disapproval of what your doing, doesnt it make you think; "maybe i shouldnt be doing this"? you may not like the "ima knowitall" speech, but it could well save their lives or make them happier.

i had my local herpetologist look at it and it had actually died because of the cage change. the females are more sensitive to transition.
that really is HIGHLY unlikely, the cham may take a day or two to adjust to its new surroundings but that wouldnt be the one and only factor to its death. theres going to be more to it and you need to find out for the health and safety of your male.

im not going to reply to any posts from now on as some people will never learn. :roll:
 

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I'm gonna have to agree with arena. Let's look at the facts.

Mantellas: Ideal Temp: 68-70F Humidity: 70%-80% Country of Origin: Madagascar.

Bearded Pygmy Chameleon: Ideal Temp: 65-80F Humidity: 80%-90% Country of Origin: Tanzania Attitude: Territorial

Peacock Day Gecko: Ideal Temp: 80-85F w/ spotlight of 90F for basking. Humidity: 65%-85% Country of Origin: Madagascar Attitude: Territorial

Cobalt Tinc: Ideal Temp: 75-80F Humidity: 80%-100% Country of Origin: Surinam or Brazil depending on morph, lets just say South American rainforest.

First, most of these animals would never see each other in the wild. Even though the gecko and the mantellas are both from Madagascar, the gecko is arboreal and the mantellas are terrestrial. I could see, from a research point of view, how you could want to see how these 2 species might interact, but the other animals would never interact in the wild at all.

Another point is the temperature. The day gecko needs an ambient temperature that's too hot for the mantellas and the cobalt tinc, and the spotlight is way too hot for any of the animals.

Let's say you keep the humidity at 85%. That would be fine for the day gecko, the tinc, and probably the chameleon, but that's just too high for the mantellas. So then let's say you lower the humidity to 80%, that's fine for the day gecko and the chameleon, but that's the high limit for the mantellas, and that's the low limit for the cobalt tinc.

Another issue for me would be how territorial the animals are. I have read that peacock day geckos can be territorial, and so can bearded pygmy chameleons. You said you've housed them together before so I guess it's not a problem for you, I just wouldn't want to take the risk. The "What If" factor is just too scary for me. What would happen if one day your day gecko and your male chameleon faced off? I would guess that the larger, faster day gecko would dominate the smaller, slower chameleon. Just something to think about.
 
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arena said:
..... chameleons should NEVER be kept in a glass tank of any kind. the reflection given by the glass will give the chameleon the impression that there is another chameleon on its territory, thus stressing it out. chameleons hide any signs of illness untill its too late generally. also, the main factor... ventilation, chameleons need at LEAST 3/4 of the viv screened as they are prone to upper respiritory infection, keeping them in such a humid environment like darts require will also lead to respiritory infection.

Arena....
Have you ever bred chameleons? I have, I have bred Chameleo calyptratus (veileds) as well as Furcifer pardalis (panthers) and I have kept them in glass enclosures with screen fronts. Ventilation is the issue rather than reflection generally. A longtime friend of mine has bred C. calyptratus and F. pardalis for around 6 years now... and guess what.... he uses glass tanks. He has extremely productive females, and his males are excellent breeders as well. The only problem that we have encountered using glass tanks is that ONE male chameleon out of our combined collections of C. calyptratus ( around 20 adults) was aggravated by his reflection. He was still a great breeder while he was housed in glass nonetheless, though he (and only he) was moved to a screen tank. I keep my veileds in screen tanks now only because I can move them outside in the summer.
I agree that screen is BETTER than glass with regards to housing some species of chameleons, but I don't buy into this glass=abuse mentality. I think that somewhere along the line, somebody suggested that screen is better than glass, and then people in places like kingsnake blew it way out of proportion until it became "divine law."
I do agree that the death of the chameleon in question is *likely* due to improper housing (the "community" tank). As for the "diagnosis" of "she was put in her tank to fast"... I find this well..... silly.
Now that the owner of the tank wants to add some dendrobatids to the tank... this brings a new issue into the mix. I doubt that frog will last more than 6 months in there. The issue is essentially "new world syndrome." When you mix wild animals from entirely different contintents, well.... we all know here (most of us anyway) what the consequences will be. Can anybody tell me why entire populations of native north americans died when the europeans came to the americas (aside from genocide and assimilation)? European diseases which they had zero immunity to. I fear that this is precisely what will happen to the little dart frog that will be introduced into the "big happy community" of wild animals from Madagascar. Without a doubt, this frog will wither away in a few months time.
People hear what they want to hear, and will do what they want to do. People will come up with silly excuses to cover their own negligence. The only thing you can do is offer assistance, and if they don't want to listen it will be their loss, but unfortunately a frog will have to suffer by it.

Double J
 
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time...

We also must consider how we define "successfully" and "a long time."
To me, seven months is only a short time to have a mixed tank running, and is not a long enough window to ordain the setup as successful.
 

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Bill, Kyle or Someone,

Please remove or move this post from here, as it has turned from a credible mixing species debate to a bash of a member by another . It reminds me too much of kingsnake and why I stopped posting there.

Dany
 
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Danny,

This is actually a good discussion, sans the bashing. The next hint of bashing we see will most likely result in the banning of certain members though.

-Bill J.
 
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