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Even at 1/2 that price people think they should be cheaper. :rolleyes::rolleyes:
:rolleyes:much cheaper :rolleyes:
 

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I do not know Phillipe, but three inch metamorphs are being sold for $120 on Kingsnake and I don't think anyone should pay that kind of money for them (as it only increases the incentive for poachers to continue taking animals from the wild). Perhaps this isn't a problem for you, but it is for me.

Richard.
Philippe is selling them for $35, their source is a zoo breeding project to conserve the species, I'm assuming the money goes straight to the zoo or the to continue the project itself. Philippe goes through Bob at SandFire Dragon Ranch (who lists the species as available soon) to ship. If you do some homework you'll see he's a well educated gentleman who's written many well-respected books on dozens of species of reptiles/amphibians. Philippe is a great guy.

The other people posting ads on kingsnake are apparently breeding their own or flipping sales like these for profit. I e-mailed one of the people posting ads for kaiseri priced at over $100 the other day and it turned into an all day debate and his opinion was that as ridiculous as his price is, they are Cites II or pending and what captive animals located in the U.S. are the only thing we're going to get. He was also of the mind that the "high price would deter amateurs from purchasing the species thus driving up the illegal WC specimens." That is a valid point. I'm torn. Your thoughts =
 

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Also, the price and the status of the species was the main driving force in my acquisition of the species because I wanted to take on the challenge to breed CB individuals and possibly help contribute to the studbook of this species. When I breed mine you can bet if I do sell any they bill be $30 maximum. I think people need to do this to combat the price inflation. I think it's great that people want to help. Little is known on breeding habits and many other aspects of this species lifestyle. Any contributions are great. Johnny O'Faren at salamandridae and caudata has contributed massive amounts of information on the species, he also believes diet strongly influences breeding. Good reads.
 

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The prices we see are a reflection of demand vs supply, and the $ some are willing to spend for a limited supply. The funny thing about that statement is... There are MANY! The seller's would love for us to believe that you will never get a chance to own this species again... The truth... Anything that can be provenly CB within the United States is able to be sold. With that being said, there are tons of people who have these and some have great success. Some fail. But in the end there are plenty of Kaiseri producing in N. America to allow a price reduction. It would even benefit them by bolstering the CB numbers we have while the wild population is dwindling at a rapid rate. I think a cost of $25 would be quite fair.

JBear
 

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Discussion Starter #85
Out of curiosity how do we square the price of these beatiful and highly endangered animals at $35 versus the up to $400 charged for some species of darts? Are we making the value judgement that these animals are some how less valuable, attractive or interesting than Benedicta, Bassleri or Pums? Not advocating that we charge more for the newts just wondering if some of the dart prices are ridiculously over inflated.
 

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So in other words you want to crash the market on them?

That is going to be a huge slap in the face to any one who has put the time and effort into them to sell for less than 1/3 of what they are going for now. A price reduction is one thing.

The price I was able to offer some at from my group by was less than what if being seen on KS and the likes and yet people still koffed at that.

Are people just pissed off that they want them and can not afford them?
 

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Discussion Starter #87
So in other words you want to crash the market on them?

That is going to be a huge slap in the face to any one who has put the time and effort into them to sell for less than 1/3 of what they are going for now. A price reduction is one thing.

The price I was able to offer some at from my group by was less than what if being seen on KS and the likes and yet people still koffed at that.

Are people just pissed off that they want them and can not afford them?
Read my post again, the question is why do people bitch about these newts now selling for $100-$125 each on KS but have no problem with darts selling for in some cases 4 times that amount?
 

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Hi Roman,

It is an absolute certainty that the high prices people were/are selling N. kaiseri for has led/will lead to the illegal smuggling of the species from the wild. The MAIN reason that many want to work with this species is SPECIFICALLY to undermine the trade in wild-collected animals by offering cb animals for a reasonable price.

I know that you believe that collection for the pet trade has no affect on wild populations, but that belief is NOT true in the case of N. kaiseri.

As for high dart frog prices, I don't buy anything I can't afford. I breed a lot of frogs and trade for most of the frogs I want.

Richard.

Read my post again, the question is why do people bitch about these newts now selling for $100-$125 each on KS but have no problem with darts selling for in some cases 4 times that amount?
 

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Hi Linus,

I wasn't equating Philippe with the people on Kingsnake selling for high prices. I also acquired my colony from Mike at Sand Fire and am keeping records for the stud book.

The notion that high prices protect the wild population is RIDICULOUS! High prices only give smugglers more reason to steal the newts from the wild. People will justify their greedy actions no matter the reality of the damage they are perpetuating on the species.

Take care, Richard.

Philippe is selling them for $35, their source is a zoo breeding project to conserve the species, I'm assuming the money goes straight to the zoo or the to continue the project itself. Philippe goes through Bob at SandFire Dragon Ranch (who lists the species as available soon) to ship. If you do some homework you'll see he's a well educated gentleman who's written many well-respected books on dozens of species of reptiles/amphibians. Philippe is a great guy.

The other people posting ads on kingsnake are apparently breeding their own or flipping sales like these for profit. I e-mailed one of the people posting ads for kaiseri priced at over $100 the other day and it turned into an all day debate and his opinion was that as ridiculous as his price is, they are Cites II or pending and what captive animals located in the U.S. are the only thing we're going to get. He was also of the mind that the "high price would deter amateurs from purchasing the species thus driving up the illegal WC specimens." That is a valid point. I'm torn. Your thoughts =
 

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So in other words you want to crash the market on them?

That is going to be a huge slap in the face to any one who has put the time and effort into them to sell for less than 1/3 of what they are going for now. A price reduction is one thing.

The price I was able to offer some at from my group by was less than what if being seen on KS and the likes and yet people still koffed at that.

Are people just pissed off that they want them and can not afford them?

Sorry Roman - i think it was just bad timing on my part. It was more directed at the people who say they want to breed them and sell them for dirt cheap prices.
 

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Some people are pissed-off that it is the greed of smugglers that is leading this species into extinction. Sell your animals for whatever you want, but there are some very serious caudate breeders that will sell them for reasonable prices (what you call "crashing" the market).

There are dozens of caudates that sell in the $20-30 range and this has not led to any crashing. It is only dart frog people that believe that prices in this range are too low, so maybe caudate people aren't driven by greed as much as some froggers are.

Just my opinion, of course. Richard.

So in other words you want to crash the market on them?

That is going to be a huge slap in the face to any one who has put the time and effort into them to sell for less than 1/3 of what they are going for now. A price reduction is one thing.

The price I was able to offer some at from my group by was less than what if being seen on KS and the likes and yet people still koffed at that.

Are people just pissed off that they want them and can not afford them?
 

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The group I am getting is CB not smuggled. When is the last time you seen a WC one? Honestly, truely seen a WC one.

When I get to the point of breeding mine, I will sell them for what every one else is selling them for. To slap serious breeders in the face like that by undercutting them so horrible is BS.

Any of the Caudates that I end up breeding will be sold for the same price that every one else is selling them for.

Greed? Seriously?
 

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It's pretty clear you haven't been following the N. kaiseri story very closely.
 

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Someone was selling a group of 12 wild-caught adults on Kingsnake about 5 months ago. You can create all the fantasies you want that N. kaiseri is not still being smuggled from the wild, but those are your fantasies alone and you should own up to them.

Richard.

Oh yeah I have not read the thread at all. At all.
 

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I dont look at king snake to be honest. So no I don't really have any fantasies about them.

Seems every one is entitled to their own opinion as long as it does not disagree with your own.

I asked a simple questions and as always you answer with your every knowing attitude.
 

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Someone was selling a group of 12 wild-caught adults on Kingsnake about 5 months ago. You can create all the fantasies you want that N. kaiseri is not still being smuggled from the wild, but those are your fantasies alone and you should own up to them.

Richard.
Life spans into the 20s to 30s are not uncommon in caduates... so these could have easily been exported years ago..
 

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Hi Ed,

Are you taking the position that N. kaiseri is not endangered? Has the status of the conditions under which smuggling occured "in the past" changed so that smuggling today is not possible?

Richard.

Life spans into the 20s to 30s are not uncommon in caduates... so these could have easily been exported years ago..
 

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Hi Ed,

Are you taking the position that N. kaiseri is not endangered? Has the status of the conditions under which smuggling occured "in the past" changed so that smuggling today is not possible?

Richard.

How did you get out of that comment that any one is saying that they are not endangered?
Do you have to twist everything around?
 

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The primary smuggling point was via Ukraine. I would think/hope that the relatively recent Cites listing would put a damper on smuggling. Availability and pricing at this point in time should hopefully render smuggling a not very lucrative endeavor. Iran never exported this species, so theoretically all animals in captivity are "illegal". They whole issue can just go 'round and 'round and 'round...

Thank God they seem to breed freely. Perhaps they warrant a higher price based on over-the-top looks? I'm sure when everyones progeny flood the market, a "fixed" price will stabilize? JVK
 
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