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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello I guess I will use this as my introduction to the forums, I have been keeping dart frogs for a little over a year now and have been using these forums as a constant source of useful information. I currently have fourteen dart frogs (Standard Leucs, Azureus, Super Blue Auratus, and New River Tincs). Some of my frogs have started to breed and I am thinking of ways to keep track of all my frogs and future offspring. I have also notices how everyone on these forums are very passionate about keeping track of the origin and blood lines of their frogs to keep them pure.

That is where my question comes in, is there any software or websites anyone uses to keep track of all their frogs? Kind of like a frog ancestry.com?

If not I was thinking about creating one. I am a Software Developer and have worked on many systems for tracking production of tissue allografts on an industrial scale. So creating a frog lineage website should be relatively easy, provided I can keep motivated enough to work after work lol.

So provided there is not already such a website would anyone actually be interested in using such a website? As it would only be useful if many people used it. (I guess it would be ok if I just used it but then there is that motivation thing).

My Idea of the website is this. Each user has a profile which they use to keep track of their frogs, entering their Species, Morph, Age, Name, Photo, etc. this would assign a unique identifier to the frog so they can be tracked. As your frogs produce offspring the new frogs would be entered into the system and their parents would be recorded (more than two parents would be recorded if they are being kept in a group). Then when you go to sell or trade your frogs to someone else you can print out a sheet or give them a link to the website where they can see the complete lineage of the frog they are receiving (Like a family tree with pictures and info). They can also sign up on the website and the ownership of the frog would be transferred over to the new user. This would link their frogs to the original source. Ideally this system would eventually have enough information to track frogs from wild caught / farm raised imports to regular enthusiasts. The system could also have other cool features like tracking development periods from egg to adult frog, or the ability search for people that work in a desired species or morph (I would add the ability to not show up on searches of course).

The possibilities and features of this website are really wide open and I would love to hear anyone’s opinion and input on the matter.

Thanks in advance,
Justin
 

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Justin, that sounds amazing. Kinda of like a studbook for captive frogs. Sounds like the sort of thing that the anti-DartFrogWhorehouse contingent could point to as the antidote to mega-breeding with no concern for the species in captivity. The first thing it makes me think of is that it would be really cool to learn from a keeper/biologist just what constitutes a healthy inbreeding coefficient for dart frogs. I wonder if there are studbooks for managing captive populations of endangered frog species in AZA accredited zoos? Anyone know? The keeper of such a studbook could tell you some of the pluses and minuses of such a system with regard to managing captive frogs among hobbyists-if healthy genetic management were one of your actual goals.
I am new to darts (though I was a studbook keeper many years ago), and from what I read on DB, it seems that many folks are just fine with breeding clutch mates to each other (for who knows how many generations?). Though darts may live in smaller isolated genetic groups than say the average continental mammal or bird, I still can't help but think that repeated sibling matings is gonna be bad for the long term health of the captive population. I look at the anatomical deformities of pet store tropical fish and think, "Oh my God!, does that have to do with genetics in some little fish pond in south Florida?"
So, your idea may seem at first like a rather simple registry, but if you looked into it, you might find that it could have very powerful management potential depending on how you designed it. Good luck! Go Gators!
 

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Tree Walkers had the Amphibian Steward program and Robb Melancon had Frog Tracks, which to my understanding both worked similar to AZA's stud books with ascension numbers and whats not. (my knowledge is limited on the subject but it still interests me.)

I was interested and so were some others but as a whole neither took off very well in the PDF hobby.

Btw....did you get the New Rivers from Under The Canopy this last weekend?

http://frogtracks.net/frmAuthenticate.aspx?ReturnUrl=/site1/Default.aspx
http://www.treewalkers.org/amphibian-steward-network/
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Tree Walkers had the Amphibian Steward program and Robb Melancon had Frog Tracks, which to my understanding both worked similar to AZA's stud books with ascension numbers and whats not. (my knowledge is limited on the subject but it still interests me.)

I was interested and so were some others but as a whole neither took off very well in the PDF hobby.

Btw....did you get the New Rivers from Under The Canopy this last weekend?

Welcome to Frogtracks
Amphibian Steward Network — Tree Walkers International
I checked out those websites and they seem a little less than user friendly, which is probably why they were not widely adopted. My idea would be to make something that anyone can easily use and to display the lineage in a meaningful way.

I did get the New Rivers from Under The Canopy over the weekend, I originally planned to get some green Auratus from you but when I saw the New Rivers I had to get them (I have a thing for blue frogs if you can't tell). Those Isopods you sold me are great though, there were way more in there than you said there would be :).
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Justin, that sounds amazing. Kinda of like a studbook for captive frogs. Sounds like the sort of thing that the anti-DartFrogWhorehouse contingent could point to as the antidote to mega-breeding with no concern for the species in captivity. The first thing it makes me think of is that it would be really cool to learn from a keeper/biologist just what constitutes a healthy inbreeding coefficient for dart frogs. I wonder if there are studbooks for managing captive populations of endangered frog species in AZA accredited zoos? Anyone know? The keeper of such a studbook could tell you some of the pluses and minuses of such a system with regard to managing captive frogs among hobbyists-if healthy genetic management were one of your actual goals.
I am new to darts (though I was a studbook keeper many years ago), and from what I read on DB, it seems that many folks are just fine with breeding clutch mates to each other (for who knows how many generations?). Though darts may live in smaller isolated genetic groups than say the average continental mammal or bird, I still can't help but think that repeated sibling matings is gonna be bad for the long term health of the captive population. I look at the anatomical deformities of pet store tropical fish and think, "Oh my God!, does that have to do with genetics in some little fish pond in south Florida?"
So, your idea may seem at first like a rather simple registry, but if you looked into it, you might find that it could have very powerful management potential depending on how you designed it. Good luck! Go Gators!
Thanks for the reply,
Calculating the inbreeding coefficient of each frog is a great idea!
It would not be that hard to calculate the inbreeding coefficient of a frog with enough data. It would be interesting so see what the average inbreeding coefficient is throughout the hobby.

I am UF alumni BTW :)
 

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While you checked the websites did you reach out to the creators? I always think its better for everyone for people to get together and try to have everyone's resources going to making 1 or established projects better rather than starting new ones from scratch.
 

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I checked out those websites and they seem a little less than user friendly, which is probably why they were not widely adopted. My idea would be to make something that anyone can easily use and to display the lineage in a meaningful way.
Not sure what you saw on the TWI website that was "less than user friendly" as there is literally nothing there anymore in regard to tracking frogs. But the system used was the ISIS/ZIMS database utilized by AZA member zoos and aquariums across the country and could have been used for actual conservation purposes/programs.

The Frog Tracks website is still up and was actually pretty simple to use...at least if you wanted any sort of substantial/relevant information and tracking. Also, it was factored into these programs that population-level management would need to be done, and for that a decent amount of information was needed in order to make sure hobbyists were breeding animals that were least likely to be related (or not related at all).

But, as was already said, despite verbal excitement from the hobby...neither was utilized enough to make the continued costs and management worthwhile.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
While you checked the websites did you reach out to the creators? I always think its better for everyone for people to get together and try to have everyone's resources going to making 1 or established projects better rather than starting new ones from scratch.
That idea sounds great in theory (kind of like open source software) but it is usually easier to start from scratch than to try to keep an old or outdated system up to date (People usually don't let random people on the internet look at all there source code either). Working with and fixing peoples past works is a major part of what I do for a living and it is less than fun if the original creator did not follow good practices. If someone else has a website that works great and has all the features I would want to track my frogs than I would love to use it, I would not want to work on it though.
 

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I think it would take off for sure if it was also used as a classifieds as well. That way, frogs could be transferred automatically, and people could search through their options of breeders based on group relatedness and filial generations.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
 

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IMO, not to be a negative Nancy, but as Ron stated, this has been attempted before.
If it was going to be utilized, it would have been during the previous offerings.

Alot talk about it being a wanted service, but when it's available, noone takes advantage of it.

Therefore, I just do the responsible thing & keep records of my own for my collection. (Not saying others are irresponsible).
It's of my opinion, that at minimum, this is something we should all be doing.
 

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Yet, the hobby is always changing. I have only had PDF's for about 6 months, and have tads about to come out of the water. I would definitely use something like this, if I knew it existed. I personally keep records for all of my animals, and it would be nice to have something to reference for ones I purchase and sell.

IMO, not to be a negative Nancy, but as Ron stated, this has been attempted before.
If it was going to be utilized, it would have been during the previous offerings.

Alot talk about it being a wanted service, but when it's available, noone takes advantage of it.

Therefore, I just do the responsible thing & keep records of my own for my collection. (Not saying others are irresponsible).
It's of my opinion, that at minimum, this is something we should all be doing.
 

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I think the reason these things don't take off is just the nature of the hobby. People don't want to be tracked or be in some sort of searchable database.

I think it's equatable to guns on some level. You don't want it stored somewhere what you have, what you've been selling, and to whom. And I'm sure on both sides it's because people own things that are illegal (though the vast majority does not).

It's a great idea, don't get me wrong. I think almost everyone wants to know where their frogs come from. But I think the enthusiasm ends there.
 

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That idea sounds great in theory (kind of like open source software) but it is usually easier to start from scratch than to try to keep an old or outdated system up to date (People usually don't let random people on the internet look at all there source code either). Working with and fixing peoples past works is a major part of what I do for a living and it is less than fun if the original creator did not follow good practices. If someone else has a website that works great and has all the features I would want to track my frogs than I would love to use it, I would not want to work on it though.
It doesn't mean you have to use their code, but their resources, experiences, and volunteers.

The point is if you try to make something and you are just 1 guy you are probably going to burn out. I have seen it a thousand times before. In fact one would assume the reason the other sites have fallen short is that exact reason. They got excited worked hard on something then burned out before it was really complete.
 

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The point is if you try to make something and you are just 1 guy you are probably going to burn out. I have seen it a thousand times before. In fact one would assume the reason the other sites have fallen short is that exact reason. They got excited worked hard on something then burned out before it was really complete.
No, as Ron noted, it was because a group of people got together and worked on a project for years only to have too little participation to make it useful at any level.

The belief that frogs are more resistant to inbreeding (which is also pushed by some with vested interests), that all you need to do is buy another frog of the same line/import and other factors all contribute to insufficient participation to make it useful much less viable and those beliefs etc are all still living large in the hobby.

There are much better places for people to put their time and resources..

Some comments

Ed
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Well there you have it, game over.
WOW just WOW. I am really really surprised about all the negative comments. Here I am trying to offer something that would help everyone ... and all you guys keep saying that I shouldn't even bother. But then you get all self righteous about keeping pure lines and knowing the origin of your frogs. Giving people like Dart Frog Warehouse a lot of crap (I don't support anything they are doing BTW).

This community is less than constructive.

I will make this website even if it is just for my personal use.
This has shown me that maybe there is not enough interest in this community to justify a website strictly for frogs. So I will probably make it more generic so it would be able to track many types of animals (reptiles, insects, mammals, etc.). The only thing that makes frogs different than most animals is the metamorphosis stage but that can be generalized to a single insect instars.

Thank you everyone that offered ideas to contribute to my project. If you have more constructive ideas please add them to this post. I will eventually post something when I have something to demonstrate.
 

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This community is less than constructive
It appears so lol. But this is the problem you have to deal with.

Maybe making it useable for other hobbies as well is what you need to do. Maybe if enough other hobbies use this system, then froggers will be compelled to since everyone else is doing it -- who knows.
 

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We are all talk and very little change. There have been many a good idea to go down in flames here with either negative responses or just lil actual involvement.
 

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I will make this website even if it is just for my personal use.
This has shown me that maybe there is not enough interest in this community to justify a website strictly for frogs. So I will probably make it more generic so it would be able to track many types of animals (reptiles, insects, mammals, etc.). The only thing that makes frogs different than most animals is the metamorphosis stage but that can be generalized to a single insect instars.
It is kind of hard to get a software package that is made to manage multiple taxa better than the programs used by institutions like zoos and aquariums as they number and track everything from insects to elephants.... including not only the ability to track multiple life stages but you could even track pregnancies to get an idea of gestation time...time between clutches, when a frog shed and so forth...

This was the software the hobby had access to but the frog people weren't that interested, most of the caudate people weren't interested...

Some comments

Ed
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
It is kind of hard to get a software package that is made to manage multiple taxa better than the programs used by institutions like zoos and aquariums as they number and track everything from insects to elephants.... including not only the ability to track multiple life stages but you could even track pregnancies to get an idea of gestation time...time between clutches, when a frog shed and so forth...

This was the software the hobby had access to but the frog people weren't that interested, most of the caudate people weren't interested...

Some comments

Ed
Interesting, So they actually had free access to the software all zoos use? And nobody used it? Do you know if it is freely accessible still? It could save me a lot of time.

Thanks,

Justin
 
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