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associating people with food doesn't really qualify as intelligence in my opinion. Since I have worked extensively with trout and other salmonids both in the wild and in hatchery settings, I think my experience is relevant here. The "shy" fish are actually using their habitat to more full advantage, not fighting the current to find food, but instead letting the current bring food to them."shyness" in this case is efficiency, and is a much more desirable trait, because the animal remains relatively inconspicuous, and exerts far less energy to obtain food. The "bold" fish are exerting far more energ in their search for food, and are also making themselves more vulnerable to predation. "Boldness" then in this case, is counterproductive, "less intelligent" if you will. hatchery rased fish for the most part never learn how to use their fluid environment to full advantage, and so have a much lower success rate once in the wild. Also, since they have "learned" to associate shadows on the water with food, and are ony looking UP for food, they are much more easily preyed upon.
This is CONDITIONING, not intelligence.
Frogs definitely get conditioned to associate people with food, Ill vouch for that, but I wouldnt call it intelligence
 

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Interesting - do you happen to have the actual scientific references, or are you relying on the blog for your information?
The blog doesn't list the actual reference and if you use a string search you can actually run across a large body of literature that goes back quite awhile supporting frogparty's statement...

It also isn't surprising that the behaviors in the blog would also play a direct role in adaptation towards captivity as bolder animals tend to have a higher threshold of stress tolerance and increased adrenaline threshold before responding to feeding stimulus or a threat...


As an example Domestication and growth hormone alter antipredator behaviour and growth patterns in juvenile brown trout, Salmo trutta - Canadian Journal of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences increases in growth hormone actually increase the behaviors noted in Frank's blog.

I didn't see anything in the blog that seperates conditioning from actual learning...
 

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Discussion Starter #5
associating people with food doesn't really qualify as intelligence in my opinion. Since I have worked extensively with trout and other salmonids both in the wild and in hatchery settings, I think my experience is relevant here. The "shy" fish are actually using their habitat to more full advantage, not fighting the current to find food, but instead letting the current bring food to them."shyness" in this case is efficiency, and is a much more desirable trait, because the animal remains relatively inconspicuous, and exerts far less energy to obtain food. The "bold" fish are exerting far more energ in their search for food, and are also making themselves more vulnerable to predation. "Boldness" then in this case, is counterproductive, "less intelligent" if you will. hatchery rased fish for the most part never learn how to use their fluid environment to full advantage, and so have a much lower success rate once in the wild. Also, since they have "learned" to associate shadows on the water with food, and are ony looking UP for food, they are much more easily preyed upon.
This is CONDITIONING, not intelligence.
Frogs definitely get conditioned to associate people with food, Ill vouch for that, but I wouldnt call it intelligence
The question than becomes where does conditioning stop and learning begin? How do we separate the two? For instance I have numerous lizards and frogs in my collection that will recognize me and come out to beg for food but will totally ignore my girlfriend and other visitors to the animal room, conversely I have a Phelsuma Standingi loose in my animal room that totally ignores my girlfriend but bolts for the most inacessible space in the room the moment it sees me( Obviouly it has learned that Lauren will not attempt to catch it, while I most certainly will) Once animals can recognize individuals and adjust their behavior accordingly is this not learning?

I also belatedly realized that the link to the study was not in the article. I have attached it below

http://gupea.ub.gu.se/bitstream/2077/22214/1/gupea_2077_22214_1.pdf
 

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if the conditioning is counterproductive to survival, you can't really call it intelligence.
 

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agreed. But is that destructive behavior not a product of generations of CONDITIONING, while we are only recently LEARNING how to attempt to live in harmony with our planet?
 

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there are many "primitive" cultures that lived in harmony with the planet for thousands of years, that are now being CONDITIONED by the outside world to change their behavior patterns
For a prime example of this, read "The Shamans Apprentice" and compare amazonian tribes polyculture faming to todays monoculture crops. Their orginal way of gardening is INTELLIGENCE. They have been CONDITIONED to do things a different way, which becomes counterproductive for their lives
 

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Discussion Starter #10
This is all true but because my Phelsuma Standingii has learned to recognize me as a predator as oppossed to my girlfriend(which is definetely beneficial to it's survival as a free roamer as opposed to a captive) I would consider that as a sign of intelligence.
 

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This is all true but because my Phelsuma Standingii has learned to recognize me as a predator as oppossed to my girlfriend(which is definetely beneficial to it's survival as a free roamer as opposed to a captive) I would consider that as a sign of intelligence.

I suggest looking up conditioned response....

One of the things that always surprises me is that when dealing with herps, people stick to the visual as the sole thing that is conditioned ignoring that herps also pick up on vibrations such as those caused by foot steps.
 

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many lizards, especially monitor lizards, have been extensively tested and definitely show signs of intelligence far beyond what was initially believed. But lizards are not fish, or frogs.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I suggest looking up conditioned response....

One of the things that always surprises me is that when dealing with herps, people stick to the visual as the sole thing that is conditioned ignoring that herps also pick up on vibrations such as those caused by foot steps.
I'd agree except the gecko in question only flees when he makes actual visual contact with me. I am also still trying to get a concrete answer on when conditioning stops and true learning begins?
 

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I also belatedly realized that the link to the study was not in the article. I have attached it below

http://gupea.ub.gu.se/bitstream/2077/22214/1/gupea_2077_22214_1.pdf
Roman, I don't think that's the right article. I believe it is this one:

https://gupea.ub.gu.se/dspace/bitstream/2077/22217/1/gupea_2077_22217_1.pdf

I took a cursory look at the paper and the author does not seem to conclude any sort of intelligence, rather that certain behavioral and non-behavioral variables can mold the fishes "personality" (boldness, shyness, etc...). I don't see any link between personality and learning being made. In fact, I didn't see any mention of "learning" in the paper ( though I did not read it in it's entirety).
 

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I suggest looking up conditioned response....

One of the things that always surprises me is that when dealing with herps, people stick to the visual as the sole thing that is conditioned ignoring that herps also pick up on vibrations such as those caused by foot steps.
Or chemosensory mechanisms ...
 

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I think conditioning is learned RESPONSES to outside stimuli, while learning implies self driven problem solving ability.
This is why, in our educational system that rewards the ability to regurgitate facts on command, instead of learning how to solve abstract problems individually,we produce students who retain(LEARN) very little in comparison to the amount of stimuli they are provided with.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
many lizards, especially monitor lizards, have been extensively tested and definitely show signs of intelligence far beyond what was initially believed. But lizards are not fish, or frogs.
Having worked with Oscars and other large Cichlids in the past I would argue that they have quite a bit of intelligence as well.
 

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Roman,

Did you read the actual thesis you linked to??? If you did, can you point me to where the linked article supports Frank's blog? I can find a lot on competition etc but nothing about learning to the extent Frank discusses or you espouse.

So the lizard can't be registering your footsteps with the visual sighting being within the flight distance?

How about doing some research into the literature on your own? Your fingers seem to work just fine....

I provided a citation that some behavior changes that look like learning are actually a response to increased hormonal control


Ed
 

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Roman, I don't think that's the right article. I believe it is this one:

https://gupea.ub.gu.se/dspace/bitstream/2077/22217/1/gupea_2077_22217_1.pdf

I took a cursory look at the paper and the author does not seem to conclude any sort of intelligence, rather that certain behavioral and non-behavioral variables can mold the fishes "personality" (boldness, shyness, etc...). I don't see any link between personality and learning being made. In fact, I didn't see any mention of "learning" in the paper ( though I did not read it in it's entirety).
Donn beat me to it...
 

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I think its very hard for us as animal keepers in general to seperate the two, because as a whole we have a horrible tedancy to anthropomorphize all our pets.
 
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