Dendroboard banner

1 - 20 of 44 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello,

My girlfriend and I got a pair of White's tree frogs about a month ago (frogs are a couple months old). lately one of them has been quite lethargic and seems to freeze up occasionally during the day. Their hind legs start spasming and they cant seem to move at all if if they get flipped over on accident (almost drowned in the water dish because Kero couldn't flip himself over). We've been trying better to make sure they get proper nutrients lately (gut loaded crickets dusted with Repti-CA with D3 almost everyday) and after this first spasms he seemed ok for a week. However, today and yesterday Kero has seized 2 days in a row. He gets a little more active during nighttime and he does seem to eat a little bit when the lights go out, but I can't seem to figure out the source of these spasms. I've tried warm and/or honey water baths and they seemed to have helped a little bit but I was hoping to get some extra input as to what could be going on. Our local exotic pet store's reptile guy said to try to get him active by having him hunt food but we've only been tong feeding so far (average 3 med size crickets every day, Keros gone down to 3 small crickets)We wash our hands with still water and only put still water in their dish, the tanks at 80deg during the day 70ish at night, humid fluxes 70 to 40 (hand spray). we have both a basking (60 W)and UVB lights. the other frog seems perfectly health so far. I haven't seen any extreme redness on their hind legs so I feel like I can rule out Red leg infection.


side note:
-the blue dish was only to give Kero a lukewarm bath. they have a bigger water dish inside the tank
-He seems bloated in one of those pictures but that bulge on his left side disappeared in a couple seconds
-I call Kero a he only because he was named after a male character. I'm not sure how frogs are sexed
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,142 Posts
He should go a vet.
An ARAV vet in your area.

Please watch it with unmeasured by temperature lukewarm baths. What is lukewarm to your touch may be to warm for an enforced soak.

I hesitate to recommend a temperature for an enforced soak with a seizing frog in this format. But oh gosh.. 75 degrees is a nice neutral temperature.

Sometimes when frogs are sick they can absorb too much water if soaked too enthusiastically.

I know nothing of these Honey Soaks for everything that ails WTF, on WTF hobby forums but it seems to have a dangerous metabolic unbalance of potential.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,142 Posts
Can you take a pic of the environment?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Can you take a pic of the environment?
we use a coconut husk substrate with dried moss and some fake plants. there also a big log that sits vertically for them to climb but i took it out for the sake of keeping an eye on him.
He just starting seizing again and it almost looks like his front legs are freezing as well this time :(
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,142 Posts
Ah ok its come in.

It would be good to remove the coconut shell from his floor and replace with dampened, not wet, paper towels.

Having loose sub and decorative moss sticking and drying on a mobility impaired frog is a stressor. If he grabs live insects on the material it can form an obstruction along with the chitin of the insects and press against nerves in the lower spine. A note.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,142 Posts
He needs immediate veterinary care.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
he gets fed by tongs so I don't think he has eaten any moss through insects as far as I know. Unfortunately the only reptile/amphibian vet near me is in another city and they could only book me in for several weeks from now...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Ah ok its come in.

It would be good to remove the coconut shell from his floor and replace with dampened, not wet, paper towels.

Having loose sub and decorative moss sticking and drying on a mobility impaired frog is a stressor. If he grabs live insects on the material it can form an obstruction along with the chitin of the insects and press against nerves in the lower spine. A note.
I've taken out all the moss and set a paper towel foundation. I've read from other frog owners and blogs to try fast him and give some belly massages. his legs did get a bit better after a little rub and a lukewarm soak (almost like shallow pool in summer temp). and his legs seem to be better for the time being. Would feeding him some worms/low chitin diet be ok in the mean time, or should I stick to fasting him for a day or so if at all? Sorry for the constant spamming, He's my first frog and I've been terrified ever since he started declining :(
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,142 Posts
Im not saying chitin is a problem for your frog.

Eating coco fiber with feeder insects can a problem. Frogs have evolved to pass chitin. Coconut husk can complicate the normal passage of the indigestible chitin. Chitin isnt digested. It passes through. Like hair and nails pass through snake gut.

The most common reason for tremors, and flaccid limbs are hypocalcemic disorders but that may not be whats up.

Seizing can indicate an injury, exposure to a poision, a period of over heating, lots of serious problems can cause seizing.

You need to get the frog to the vet, and keep him at rest.

The bulge is highly irregular.

He isnt skinny. Hes been fed well and frequently. Hes in no danger of starving.

Have you looked into vets in your area?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,142 Posts
Stop massaging him please. He could be injured or have an injurious piece of material inside of him.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,142 Posts
If you cant find a vet that treats frogs - if its impossible go to a Bird one that is willing to see him. They could at least do an x ray. Its better if he hasnt eaten Easier to make things out per imaging
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,142 Posts
Take a photo of the lights you use.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
152 Posts
I'm sorry you're going through this with your frog.

This is unfortunately a situation where there's not a lot we can suggest to you, this is a serious medical condition from an unknown cause. It's hard to advise doing anything without seeing a vet for at least some diagnostics. Your options are essentially to set up an enclosure with optimum husbandry parameters for the species, put him inside, and hope he recovers on his own (this is something forum members can potentially help with), or see a veterinarian for an exam/diagnostics and see if there is a treatment option to move forward (this is the better option but not something forum members can help with).

Interventions like force feeding, baths, or belly massages might seem like a good idea initially because then you're doing something but since we don't know what the problem is they could also hurt him and make the situation worse. If he is still able to move around and choose to soak when he wants to soak and seek a temperature he wants to be in I would stop manipulating him at all. I don't think there is a good reason to be treating him at all if you do not have any idea what the problem is - that's why veterinary care is required.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
152 Posts
My recommendation would be to set up a hospital enclosure like KMC recommended above, make sure you have a working thermometer (+/- a hygrometer), keep his cage and water bowl clean and provide cover and then be as hands off as possible. Also, if you have any intention to see a vet, make an appointment as soon as possible, ideally through an urgent care or emergency that sees exotics.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Take a photo of the lights you use.
The UVB was installed after his first set of leg spasms at the reccomendation of the reptile guy at the pet shop. My temp. Readings were also off it is around 70 to 75 at night time and 80 at day (the thermostat is on the other side of the enclosure from the heat sources (lights)
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,142 Posts
The 5.0 compact in the dome isnt ideal strategy. It should be positioned laterally with structure beneath for the frog to get within a useful range. There are same brand hoods available to use or you can take the dome off a clip lamp and work with the joint to turn it sideways just above the screen. Always secure clip lamp clamps and arm with zipties or hardware.

In 6 months you should replace with the tubular version and a florescent fixture.

Dont feel confused, ease of marketing recommendation and product often is at odds with actual husbandry optimum use methods. Dr Francis Baines UVB website will help you further.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
638 Posts
While I think there is evidence to suggest UVB is beneficial to some tree frogs, it certainly is not going to make or break this situation.

I would suggest it may be experiencing a Vitamin A deficiency. I can see your supplements in one of your photos. I would suggest tossing that and:

1. Switch your primary supplement to Repashy Calcium Plus
2. Get a small bottle of Repashy Vitamin A and use this for the next couple of feedings (it sounds like he is eating). Give it to both your frogs. After that, dose it once a week a couple more weeks if you are seeing improvement, using the Calcium Plus on every other feeding other than that one. After that, the Repashy Calcium Plus will have enough Vit A to maintain proper levels.
3. Also use Repashy Supervite every couple of weeks/once a month mixed in with your Calcium Plus.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,142 Posts
Kero's ppl, (cant scroll up, skippy)...

The lighting, supplement and environment advice being given are corrective husbandry changes.

Not a substitute for veterinary treatment.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
We'll be contacting a vet as soon as theyr3e open on monday and we'll just keep en eye on him in the meantime. I'll post an update after a call with the vet. Thanks for the tip everyone.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,142 Posts
I usually put thermostat probes on the high temp zone. As Im wanting to control the warmest effect.

The cooler aspect of the environment is subjugated to the warmer output and also the ambient of the room.

Glass gives heat away. In insulated enclosures, either by caging material type or interior build stuff, temperature zones are easier to target and less subjective to the ambient. An insulated env also allows for significantly lower wattages to be used to attain target temps and there is not the immediate blasting off of moisture from misting which, for whites who are not a high humidity frog, still has importance.
I see alot of whites environments that go too arid, too cool, and too drastic in effect all in the same day/night.

Im not saying that is what is happening with your frog. Just covering some bases here given it all works together.

Im curious what the frog ate to cause such a bulge in his stomach. If it ate a meal that wasnt capable of creating such a visually apparent bulge than it makes one wonder if there is something else going on "nearby" that would cause such a meal bulge.

I had a new man up in the dept that liked to Power Feed things on my days off. He liked to see guys eat. He gave too many days old pinkys to all the baby whites thinking that i wouldnt be able to tell. But it was easy to even see, feel their heads, legs through the skin. They all digested them fine but feeding for fun can be problematic. Not saying thats what happened with you at all. Clarifying.

Whats more important is writing down accurate history for the vet. Take vid of seizing if it happens again. Presentations can change in even a days time. It all can help.
 
1 - 20 of 44 Posts
Top