Keeping species/morphs going in the hobby

14940 Views 121 Replies 29 Participants Last post by ngeno626, Mar 11, 2014

fieldnstream

Discussion Starter · Aug 14, 2011

Hey all,
I have been thinking a lot lately about how we as a hobby can do more for the frogs we keep. I have been inspired by a recent thread to try to be more conscientious when choosing my next frogs. Though I have always chosen frogs based on coloration or behavior, I think there can be much more worthwhile ways of choosing which species to keep. I would prefer to acquire frogs that need to be stabilized in captivity rather than just some pretty/common ones that I like. I am looking for opinions on what frogs need more attention in the hobby and info/experiences with said frogs. I know that much of this information can be found in older threads, but some of the info is outdated, so I would love for this to become an up-to-date resource for all of us that want to keep species/morphs from disappearing from captivity. I don't think this thread has to focus on really expensive frogs, (I think almost everyone knows that O. histrionica, lehmanni, granulifera, sylvatica, etc...are rare) just on frogs that may be lost from the hobby. This doesn't mean that these species/morphs shouldn't be mentioned, but I hope that this can be a much more broad view of what frogs need to be bolstered in the hobby. There has been mention of some tricolor morphs that are becoming increasingly rare, I would love to hear more ideas about some of the less "glamorous" frogs that may be lost. I truly believe that this can become a beneficial thread for us all.
Thanks in advance to those who share experiences and ideas
-Field

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zBrinks

· #21 · Aug 16, 2011

Concerning leucomelas, also keep in mind that the 'standard/nominat' leucs are, for the most part, a mish-mash of different imports from Venezuela. I would say it's more than likely that at least some of these imports represent different populations.

Green foot leucs came from Venezuela in early 1995.
I have some 'standards' that are F2 from a 1996 import, and they are the largest 'standard' leucs I've ever seen.
According to some, there seems to possibly be 3 different phenotypes of leucs coming out of Guyana. If these represent different populations is anyone's guess, but they do seem to breed true.

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fieldnstream

Discussion Starter · #22 · Aug 16, 2011 (Edited)

zBrinks said:
I have some 'standards' that are F2 from a 1996 import, and they are the largest 'standard' leucs I've ever seen.

The froglets from that import that I got from you are at least 30% larger than the the other leuc froglets, I'm excited to see what they look like as adults.

So are the only trait-bred leucomelas the chocolates?
Maybe I should start a new thread...don't want to hijack my own thread.

I'm interested to hear from people who are working to set up safety populations, I know Ed was saying that large numbers are necessary, but it seems that if we figure out what people are trying to stabilize what species/morphs, it may influence others to set up small groups to further that work.
Hopefully within the next few months I will be getting a couple of groups of blue D. truncatus (thank you to all of yall that have helped me with this so far), anyone else interested in trying to form a group to stabilize these animals (especially on the east coast)?

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zBrinks

· #23 · Aug 16, 2011

fieldnstream said:
So are the only trait-bred leucomelas the chocolates and finespots?

Fine spot azureus have been line bred - fine spot leucomelas have not been. Small numbers of them came into the country many years ago.

fieldnstream

Discussion Starter · #24 · Aug 16, 2011

zBrinks said:
Fine spot azureus have been line bred - fine spot leucomelas have not been. Small numbers of them came into the country many years ago.

Thanks Zach, just found the thread where you already answered this question...didn't finish going through my search results before I asked this...I know Blasphemy!

PeanutbuttER

· #25 · Aug 16, 2011 (Edited)

I thought fine spot azureus were linebred from naturally occurring fine spot individuals. Weren't a proportion of the original imports fine spot? I'm assuming they weren't as extreme as some of those that were line-bred for it, but still I thought they originally existed as a natural variation within the standard azureus population.

zBrinks

· #26 · Aug 16, 2011

That's correct - azureus can be quite variable. I have a trio of F2s at home, and one looks like your typical azureus, while another has virtually no spotting.

Golden State Mantellas

· #27 · Aug 17, 2011

thedude said:
standards, small spots, green foot, guyana banded, guyana yellow.

this could be a potentially great thread, theres already great info on it. heres a good list of some uncommon frogs that need some help, and are also somewhat obtainable (as in, not like some obligates out there).

A. bassleri
A. trivittata
A. altamazonica
A. pepperi
A. hanheli
A. zaparo
A. femoralis
R. uakarii
R. reticulata
R. benedicta
R. ventrimaculata (Blackwater, Rodyll, Rio Napo, Borja Ridge)
R. summersi
R. flavovittata
P. vittata
P. lugubris
P. aurotaenia
H. azureiventris
O. pumilio (Uyama River, Rio Branco, Rio Guarmo, Robalo, Salt Creek, Red Frog Beach, Darklands, Cauchero, Loma Partida, Siquerres, Blue Jeans, Escudos, Chiriqui Grande, Pastores, Cayo Agua, Yellowbelly, possibly more)
D. leucomelas (Small Spot, Green Foot)
D. tinctorius (Lorenzo, Koetari River, French Guyana Cobalt, several others)
D. auratus (Mebalo, Low River, several other "ugly" populations)
A. galactonotus (Red, Solid Orange, Moonshine)
A. castaneoticus
A. quinquivittata
E. tricolor
E. anthonyi (Pasage Sarayunga, Rio Canario, Salvias, several others i cant recall)

some are way worse than others but you get the idea. its a big list, but this is partially because some frogs are quite new to the hobby, and others are subject to boom and bust cycles every few years.

To build on Adam's post:

M. cowani
M. bernhardi
M. haraldmeieri
M. milotympanum
M. pulchra
M. expectata 'standard'
M. expectata aff.
M. crocea
M. ebenaui (not "rare," though not many hobbyists working to further them in the trade)
M. madagascariensis
M. nigricans (genetically identical to M. baroni)
M. baroni (genetically identical to M. nigricans)
M. laevigata
M. viridis

Only M. aurantiaca was left out, mainly due to the high number of keepers (both vets and novices) having such success breeding them.

Credit to Rain_Frog and stemcellular for building the list (minus a couple of additions by me

) in another thread.

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Ed

· #28 · Aug 17, 2011

Golden State Mantellas said:
Only M. aurantiaca was left out, mainly due to the high number of keepers (both vets and novices) having such success breeding them.

I wouldn't leave them off as they were fairly scarce just a few years ago and very little interest. I can remember a certain IAD where a breeder had captive bred animals and sold none during the course of the show.. the recent imports are what put some life back into that species.

Ed

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botanyboy03

· #29 · Aug 18, 2011

thedude said:
standards, small spots, green foot, guyana banded, guyana yellow.

this could be a potentially great thread, theres already great info on it. heres a good list of some uncommon frogs that need some help, and are also somewhat obtainable (as in, not like some obligates out there).

A. bassleri
A. trivittata
A. altamazonica
A. pepperi
A. hanheli
A. zaparo
A. femoralis
R. uakarii
R. reticulata
R. benedicta
R. ventrimaculata (Blackwater, Rodyll, Rio Napo, Borja Ridge)
R. summersi
R. flavovittata
P. vittata
P. lugubris
P. aurotaenia
H. azureiventris
O. pumilio (Uyama River, Rio Branco, Rio Guarmo, Robalo, Salt Creek, Red Frog Beach, Darklands, Cauchero, Loma Partida, Siquerres, Blue Jeans, Escudos, Chiriqui Grande, Pastores, Cayo Agua, Yellowbelly, possibly more)
D. leucomelas (Small Spot, Green Foot)
D. tinctorius (Lorenzo, Koetari River, French Guyana Cobalt, several others)
D. auratus (Mebalo, Low River, several other "ugly" populations)
A. galactonotus (Red, Solid Orange, Moonshine)
A. castaneoticus
A. quinquivittata
E. tricolor
E. anthonyi (Pasage Sarayunga, Rio Canario, Salvias, several others i cant recall)

some are way worse than others but you get the idea. its a big list, but this is partially because some frogs are quite new to the hobby, and others are subject to boom and bust cycles every few years.

Would you consider Campana to be one of the "uglier" morphs? They're definitely not the most flashy or outgoing, but I like my breeding pair.

I'm working with H azureriventris, but no breeding yet. AND I am soon to have A. pepperi come September, YAY.

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Golden State Mantellas

· #30 · Aug 18, 2011

Ed said:
I wouldn't leave them off as they were fairly scarce just a few years ago and very little interest. I can remember a certain IAD where a breeder had captive bred animals and sold none during the course of the show.. the recent imports are what put some life back into that species.

Ed

You know, I had originally included M aurantiaca, due to its CITES status, though I removed it due to so many having such luck with breeding the species. As always, thanks for the correction Ed.

botanyboy03 said:
Would you consider Campana to be one of the "uglier" morphs? They're definitely not the most flashy or outgoing, but I like my breeding pair.

I'm working with H azureriventris, but no breeding yet. AND I am soon to have A. pepperi come September, YAY.

The "ugly" morphs, or those suffering from LBF syndrome, are some of my favs. Particularly M ebenaui and M bernhardi.

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thedude

· #31 · Aug 18, 2011

botanyboy03 said:
Would you consider Campana to be one of the "uglier" morphs? They're definitely not the most flashy or outgoing, but I like my breeding pair.

I'm working with H azureriventris, but no breeding yet. AND I am soon to have A. pepperi come September, YAY.

i wouldnt consider them ugly, but others do. its really all opinion. they are pretty common still, but since they only go for $25 each it would be easy for them to slip away quickly from little interest.

azureiventris are interesting, they are great frogs that are extremely nice looking, but they breed like CRAZY. problem is, people have to morph out 19 males for every female, so when they arent selling and disappear, they could be lost fairly easily. actually almost happened in europe.

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thedude

· #32 · Aug 18, 2011

Golden State Mantellas said:
To build on Adam's post:

M. cowani
M. bernhardi
M. haraldmeieri
M. milotympanum
M. pulchra
M. expectata 'standard'
M. expectata aff.
M. crocea
M. ebenaui (not "rare," though not many hobbyists working to further them in the trade)
M. madagascariensis
M. nigricans (genetically identical to M. baroni)
M. baroni (genetically identical to M. nigricans)
M. laevigata
M. viridis

Only M. aurantiaca was left out, mainly due to the high number of keepers (both vets and novices) having such success breeding them.

id say cowani and haraldmeieri shouldnt be on the list because they are to mantellas what rare obligates are to darts. the chances of them being around are slim, and the people working with them are probably already working on some type of breeding project with them.

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Justin Bailey

· #33 · Aug 18, 2011

Can someone dig deeper in to the tincs they believe could use more work? I'm very interested in acquiring many of these species for this purpose and would like to know others oppinions.

PeanutbuttER

· #34 · Aug 18, 2011

PM Woodsman. I'd be willing to bet that he'd be able to help you out with that one. He's also a pretty friendly guy, which is an added plus

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SmackoftheGods

· #35 · Aug 18, 2011

thedude said:
i wouldnt consider them ugly, but others do. its really all opinion. they are pretty common still, but since they only go for $25 each it would be easy for them to slip away quickly from little interest.

Are they $25 because they're common, or are they $25 because of a lack of interest? Personally, I don't know anyone who has them....

Golden State Mantellas

· #36 · Aug 18, 2011

thedude said:
id say cowani and haraldmeieri shouldnt be on the list because they are to mantellas what rare obligates are to darts. the chances of them being around are slim, and the people working with them are probably already working on some type of breeding project with them.

My apologies, I missed the part where you said "uncommon and somewhat attainable" in your first post. I completely agree.

frogfreak

· #37 · Aug 18, 2011

Justin Bailey said:
Can someone dig deeper in to the tincs they believe could use more work? I'm very interested in acquiring many of these species for this purpose and would like to know others oppinions.

Any of the rarer Tincs could use some help, Justin.

Green Sips
Yellow Sips
True Sips
New Rivers
Bakhuis
Lorenzo
Oyapok

That's all I can think of at the moment. I think keeping a pair of Alanis would be a nice too. They don't seem to be one of the most popular morphs, but I'm not sure why. They're a stunning frog IMO.

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frogfreak

· #38 · Aug 18, 2011

SmackoftheGods said:
Are they $25 because they're common, or are they $25 because of a lack of interest? Personally, I don't know anyone who has them....

I think it's a lack of interest. Pictures don't do them justice at all, Jake. Everyone that see's mine in person wants them. The cream on brown with the reticulated pattern makes them a very attractive frog IMO.

PeanutbuttER

· #39 · Aug 18, 2011

And that's part of the problem if pictures don't show them off well. I've met 1 guy locally that has a couple auratus, but I've never seen them so aside from pictures (that don't do much for me) there's really very little to interest me about them sadly...

fieldnstream

Discussion Starter · #40 · Aug 18, 2011

I had a lone D. auratus campana (bought as kahula and cream...I believe they are the same thing, please correct me if I am wrong) 6 years ago and you really have to see them in person to appreciate them. I didn't want to get it...I was guilty of a little LBF racism...but my GF was steadfast in her desire to get one. Once it grew a little its 3-shade reticulations were definitely interesting enough to get past the brownness. I remember seeing ads for freshly imported ones a couple of months ago, hopefully they are in good hands.

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