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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey all,
I have been thinking a lot lately about how we as a hobby can do more for the frogs we keep. I have been inspired by a recent thread to try to be more conscientious when choosing my next frogs. Though I have always chosen frogs based on coloration or behavior, I think there can be much more worthwhile ways of choosing which species to keep. I would prefer to acquire frogs that need to be stabilized in captivity rather than just some pretty/common ones that I like. I am looking for opinions on what frogs need more attention in the hobby and info/experiences with said frogs. I know that much of this information can be found in older threads, but some of the info is outdated, so I would love for this to become an up-to-date resource for all of us that want to keep species/morphs from disappearing from captivity. I don't think this thread has to focus on really expensive frogs, (I think almost everyone knows that O. histrionica, lehmanni, granulifera, sylvatica, etc...are rare) just on frogs that may be lost from the hobby. This doesn't mean that these species/morphs shouldn't be mentioned, but I hope that this can be a much more broad view of what frogs need to be bolstered in the hobby. There has been mention of some tricolor morphs that are becoming increasingly rare, I would love to hear more ideas about some of the less "glamorous" frogs that may be lost. I truly believe that this can become a beneficial thread for us all.
Thanks in advance to those who share experiences and ideas
-Field
 

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Some of the morphs of the tricolor and anthonyi could dissapear becuase they produce soo many tadpoles and breed soo much and mabye some people don't like that. What would be cool is to just to keep one frog like a whole bunch of tricolors and anthonyis and only keep them and try to stabalize the less common morphs in the hobby.
 

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Hi Field,

I think you have good intentions with wanting to work with frogs that aren't well-represented in the hobby (not just the most expensive and/or illegal frogs). My friend Mike K. gave me five Blue D. truncatus tadpoles last year and I now have a 3.2 or 2.3 group that is laying every few days. It seems that some people have trouble getting breeding pairs going, so my intention is to raise-up a large number of froglets and put breeding pairs together for people interested in working with the frog.

You could probably find a large number of frogs that have diminished in popularity in the hobby this way. Just find frogs that you also think are really cool. Nothing like raising a bunch of frogs that you really aren't that fond of.

Good luck, Richard.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Richard,
Blue D. truncatus were actually near the top of my list before I even started thinking about working with frogs that are less common. I asked in the local thread but no one seems to have them, I had read that they were less common, but I didn't realize just how uncommon they really are. I wish you the best of luck expanding your collection, I'm sure you have a mile-long waitlist, but keep me in mind if/when you have some groups ready, I would love to be part of keeping the species in the hobby.

ExoticPocket,
I think that focusing on a species is a great idea. I was going to try to get all the D. leucomelas morphs, but now I'm thinking of trying to just keep a few species/morphs and try to learn as much as possible about the few I keep. I really like your Zarayunga, I hope you keep having great luck with them.
 

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Richard,
Blue D. truncatus were actually near the top of my list before I even started thinking about working with frogs that are less common. I asked in the local thread but no one seems to have them, I had read that they were less common, but I didn't realize just how uncommon they really are. I wish you the best of luck expanding your collection, I'm sure you have a mile-long waitlist, but keep me in mind if/when you have some groups ready, I would love to be part of keeping the species in the hobby.

ExoticPocket,
I think that focusing on a species is a great idea. I was going to try to get all the D. leucomelas morphs, but now I'm thinking of trying to just keep a few species/morphs and try to learn as much as possible about the few I keep. I really like your Zarayunga, I hope you keep having great luck with them.
You can have some. Got a but load of eggs in the tank and like 7 morph outs and then some tads in the tank. hahaha :D That be cool to get all the morphs of a frog... Especially pumilio ;)
 

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I really like this idea as keeping the ugliest frogs I can possibly find, is exactly what I'm in to. After keeping several rare (to the hobby) tree frogs, I found however, that in order to maintane*sp. A population of these frogs you would have to reproduce them at some point. When you are someone like myself who takes pride in keeping some of the ugliest frogs, you find that after breeding them no one but yourself takes interest in them, leaving you with possibly hundreds of extra froglets with no where to go. This lead me to stop keeping several of these species but I still kick myself for moving them as some are now listed as critically endangered and I may never be able to acquire them again. If there were always homes for extra offspring than this idea would work great but that isnt always the case often unfortunately.:(
 

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Keep in mind that blue truncatus are more common on the west coast of the US as opposed to the east coast where yellow truncatus are more common.

Ed
 

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I was going to mention truncatus as well.... Possibly flavovittatus? Uakarii?

Three things i'll mention. First has been mentioned already. In order to maintain a species you have to reproduce them. You have to be prepared for the possibility that no one will want your frogs. That means having a huge space dedicated to tanks to keep your offspring in.

Second, in order to maintain a species you can't just work with a single pair or a single bloodline. You need to gather as many bloodlines as possible in an attempt to maintain genetic diversity.

Third, keep in mind that the hobby goes in cycles. Chances are when you get outside of the great beginner frogs like leucs, azureus, and some varieties of auratus, it doesn't matter which frog you're working with, it will have its day of unpopularity. This seems to be the way that some frogs are lost. Something gets overbred, becomes unpopular and people stop taking care of/breeding/distributing the frog. Then when the frog becomes popular/rare again no one can find it. So it's not necessary to find frogs you're not interested in right NOW. But if you get a species, hang on to it and continue to breed it. Chances are it's time will come. This is also another reason to gather as many lines as possible as you can if you're thinking about a maintenance project. If you're only working with one line, then a few years down the road if you're the only one pumping out that frog there may not be much genetic diversity.
 

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Three things i'll mention. First has been mentioned already. In order to maintain a species you have to reproduce them. You have to be prepared for the possibility that no one will want your frogs. That means having a huge space dedicated to tanks to keep your offspring in.

Second, in order to maintain a species you can't just work with a single pair or a single bloodline. You need to gather as many bloodlines as possible in an attempt to maintain genetic diversity.
If there are other people who are dedicated to a species, then you don't have to gather up as many of the bloodlines as possible, but you should hold back some offspring to make sure that in case something happens to your frogs, you have some backup.

Actually it is more than just breeding the frogs.. you have to actually look to maximize the genetic diversity of the frogs that are breeding. The most common practice in the hobby is to get a group from a single breeder and then make one or more pairs from what are usually siblings or closely related cousins. This causes a loss of genetic diversity over time and puts the populations at risk not only from the popularity cycles but inbreeding depression.

Some comments

Ed
 

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If there are other people who are dedicated to a species, then you don't have to gather up as many of the bloodlines as possible, but you should hold back some offspring to make sure that in case something happens to your frogs, you have some backup.

Actually it is more than just breeding the frogs.. you have to actually look to maximize the genetic diversity of the frogs that are breeding. The most common practice in the hobby is to get a group from a single breeder and then make one or more pairs from what are usually siblings or closely related cousins. This causes a loss of genetic diversity over time and puts the populations at risk not only from the popularity cycles but inbreeding depression.

Some comments

Ed
Thanks, Ed. I wanted to be more specific, but I was on my phone and typing too much with the thumbs hurts....
 

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Thanks, Ed. I wanted to be more specific, but I was on my phone and typing too much with the thumbs hurts....
I wouldn't even attempt to answer a post like this on my phone, your a braver man than I.

Ed
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
If there are other people who are dedicated to a species, then you don't have to gather up as many of the bloodlines as possible, but you should hold back some offspring to make sure that in case something happens to your frogs, you have some backup.

Actually it is more than just breeding the frogs.. you have to actually look to maximize the genetic diversity of the frogs that are breeding. The most common practice in the hobby is to get a group from a single breeder and then make one or more pairs from what are usually siblings or closely related cousins. This causes a loss of genetic diversity over time and puts the populations at risk not only from the popularity cycles but inbreeding depression.

Some comments

Ed
This is one of the things I am interested in...organizing small groups with unrelated bloodlines (where possible) so that diversity can be maximized. As long as there is open communication and exchange of offspring it could work out great.
I'm sure this has been done before so any insight into how to operate a group like this would be greatly appreciated. I don't have enough connections in the hobby to lead something like this, but I will do my best to help out in any way possible. I know a good step would be to join TWI/ASN which is something I plan on doing in the next few weeks.
Anyone else have some more suggestions for species/morphs?
 

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I should add, that it is also impractical for most if not virtually individual hobbyists to maintain enough frogs to sustain the maximal genetic diversity. As an example, to maximize genetic diversity for between 100 and 200 years, you need to start with at least 50 individuals of that population and preferably more thsn 100 individuals of that population and then breed them in a manner to maxize the genetic diversity to prevent inbreeding risks. The method that is used by the majority of the hobby doesn't do anything to ensure survival of a population of the frogs because even getting frogs from different breeders doesn't necessarily indicate degree of unrelatedness of the frogs and frogs that are well adapted and produce large numbers of offspring can swamp the population diminishing the less common alleles or contributions by frogs that do not reproduce as frequently. When this is added to the popularity cycles, the outlook for the frogs over the next 50-100 years is grim. In a different thread, it was noted that one population of dendrobatid frog has gone extinct due to a failure to ensure that it was sustained, and there is a substantial risk that other species may follow. People have to get past the idea that simply breeding a frog is ensuring that the population is doing well....

Ed
 

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Keep in mind that blue truncatus are more common on the west coast of the US as opposed to the east coast where yellow truncatus are more common.
Agreed. I would love to work with the yellow form of truncatus, but all anyone out here seems to have are the less attractive blue ones. :D
 

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I'm sure this has been done before so any insight into how to operate a group like this would be greatly appreciated. I don't have enough connections in the hobby to lead something like this, but I will do my best to help out in any way possible. I know a good step would be to join TWI/ASN which is something I plan on doing in the next few weeks.
You just described the purpose and function of Taxon Management Groups (TMGs) within the ASN. You work on a TMP that will outline how a species and it's various captive morphs/populations will be worked with. Then, when enough founding participants and number of unrelated frogs are coordinated, the TMG is formed. Members within the group keep in communicated regarding husbandry and breeding, trade unrelated (or less related) frogs with one another as desired in order to maintain genetic diversity and health of the captive population, etc. Just sign up and contact either of the ASN co-directors about your passion/interests and they'll help get you going.
 

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Definitely a good cause, but one of the inherent problems is actually sourcing one or more breeding pairs to get started... with many of these frogs, it's rough even finding froglets. I'm experiencing this right now with Mantella laevigata, I've only found one person with froglets (and no one with available adults) and he isn't shipping during summer, so the search continues.

For what it's worth, taking a shotgun approach and searching for several species that fit the bill will probably be easier than being completely set on one species/morph. I'm definitely with Richard on his 'make sure it's something you like' comment, but being somewhat flexible will help your chances.

edit- It's also harder being new-ish guys like us, I'm thinking that meeting some of the more seasoned hobbyists will go a long way with this type of thing.
 

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Definitely a good cause, but one of the inherent problems is actually sourcing one or more breeding pairs to get started... with many of these frogs, it's rough even finding froglets. I'm experiencing this right now with Mantella laevigata, I've only found one person with froglets (and no one with available adults) and he isn't shipping during summer, so the search continues.
However, being part of a working group of people who are also focusing on the same species/morph makes available all of their footwork and connections as well, widening the pool of resources and possibility.
 

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Hate to hijack, but aren't there only 2 "true morphs"/locales in the hobby?
standards, small spots, green foot, guyana banded, guyana yellow.


this could be a potentially great thread, theres already great info on it. heres a good list of some uncommon frogs that need some help, and are also somewhat obtainable (as in, not like some obligates out there).

A. bassleri
A. trivittata
A. altamazonica
A. pepperi
A. hanheli
A. zaparo
A. femoralis
R. uakarii
R. reticulata
R. benedicta
R. ventrimaculata (Blackwater, Rodyll, Rio Napo, Borja Ridge)
R. summersi
R. flavovittata
P. vittata
P. lugubris
P. aurotaenia
H. azureiventris
O. pumilio (Uyama River, Rio Branco, Rio Guarmo, Robalo, Salt Creek, Red Frog Beach, Darklands, Cauchero, Loma Partida, Siquerres, Blue Jeans, Escudos, Chiriqui Grande, Pastores, Cayo Agua, Yellowbelly, possibly more)
D. leucomelas (Small Spot, Green Foot)
D. tinctorius (Lorenzo, Koetari River, French Guyana Cobalt, several others)
D. auratus (Mebalo, Low River, several other "ugly" populations)
A. galactonotus (Red, Solid Orange, Moonshine)
A. castaneoticus
A. quinquivittata
E. tricolor
E. anthonyi (Pasage Sarayunga, Rio Canario, Salvias, several others i cant recall)

some are way worse than others but you get the idea. its a big list, but this is partially because some frogs are quite new to the hobby, and others are subject to boom and bust cycles every few years.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
Hate to hijack, but aren't there only 2 "true morphs"/locales in the hobby?
I should have been clearer...morphs and localities. Old lines (Columbian I believe)and the new imports (Guiana or Guyana...can't remember), plus the "selected" morphs. I have also heard that there are two types of bandeds, from 2 collection areas. I also believe that green foots are a locality, but I am not certain of this. So its more than just nominat and banded. I am interested in any information people have about the different leucomelas lines, morphs, localities, etc...pms with insight would be greatly appreciated.
 
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