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Discussion Starter #1
My frog is a juvenile dendrobates tinctorious, the Alalapadu Cobalt morph, and I purchased them off of Josh's frogs about ten days ago. A few days ago I noticed they were opening and closing their mouth constantly, and it appears that their neck is bloated? I don't think they're calling because they are only a few months old.


They don't appear to be sick in any other way. I have seen them eating and they are not acting especially lethargic or anything, and their tank mates are also fine. They haven't been fighting or anything. The humidity is usually from 70% - 95% and I am using a front opening terrarium that is 18 x 18 x 24. The lighting is an aquarium LED and I have not recorded any temps over 75 F. I've been providing melanogaster flies and every other feeding I've dusted them with Fluker's Reptile Vitamin.

frogsick.png
 

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Pics of the entire viv would help us troubleshoot.

What are the tankmates (species, number, age, where did you get them)?

I'd recommend using Repashy Calcium Plus as an every-feeding dust; the vitamin profile on the Flukers doesn't line up with what froggers usually provide. I don't think this is responsible for what you're describing, though.
 
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I would contact the vendor immediately. If they are having a problem with the same group they know they do.

What you describe is the odd little anuran gesture that signals inflammation. That can mean an infection, ie; sick. It can also be a sign of immersion injury but i think it would be less likely unless you have a moving water feature.

You describe it not being over 75 f . It shouldnt be under that either if they are having problems.
 

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Joshes frogs operate like honest people.

It is extremely hard to control the future impacts of all the animals that go out.
 

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I always tried to be 'present' and mindful when misting little dendrobates and mantella froglets. As immersion injury is a set up for infections and also a mechanical hazard in itself. This is also true for other guys. I had a large group of Jacksons chameleons from my breeding pair, burly little football players w no mortalities. When placed in homes there were reports of sudden deaths after heavy misting in attempts to attain RH levels read on internet care sheets and recommendations. I am convinced many reptiles and amphibians are able to detect shifts in barometric pressure, and other nuances before heavy rains and that they instinctively seek refuge as a survival mechanism per their vulnerability.

I hope no one minds i share these tangetial thoughts.

And yes agree w Soc on counts, i would also be curious of cover and misting means, duration and vigor. It may be of no relevance, but maybe not. Its all important if reported as accurately as possible, even if it serves as a just a piece of the in the collective reef of observation in our charges. Please touch base and all hopes for a resolve in some positive.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
296032


Here is a picture of the vivarium. I use a pump sprayer twice a day, and I have a fogger set to run for five minutes every hour. I've checked an rechecked to make sure no adhesive used in s securing the fogger is in the tank. Right now the frog is with two other juvenile tank mates, all a few months old. My plan was to wait until they were old enough to sex and then separate them as needed.
 

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Some thoughts:

That top layer of sphagnum shouldn't be there. It is too wet; leaf litter over ABG is a very good basic substrate.

A fogger is not recommended.

The plywood wall on the left: is that a cold (exterior, or unheated room) wall? Relatedly, you say the high temp is 75F; what is the lowest temp?

What is the ventilation like?

Much, much more cover and climbing opportunities -- plants, branches, cork rounds -- would be very good. There isn't anywhere to hide in there that isn't wet. Darts are fairly to strongly arboreal, too.
 
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Discussion Starter #8
Some thoughts:

That top layer of sphagnum shouldn't be there. It is too wet; leaf litter over ABG is a very good basic substrate.

A fogger is not recommended.

The plywood wall on the left: is that a cold (exterior, or unheated room) wall? Relatedly, you say the high temp is 75F; what is the lowest temp?

What is the ventilation like?

Much, much more cover and climbing opportunities -- plants, branches, cork rounds -- would be very good. There isn't anywhere to hide in there that isn't wet. Darts are fairly to strongly arboreal, too.
Okay. I was told sphagnum moss was required so I was using it. I will swap to something else other than the fogger, but why are they not recommended? The left is a visual barrier: it's just a sheet of plexiglass that I got along with a few others to fit onto my vivarium. There is top and front ventilation. The temp doesn't drop below 70F for the most part, it has rarely been at 69F.

I was told that the dendrobates I was buying would be less arboreal so they didn't need as much climbing stuff. I am really sorry. I tried to do a lot of research before buying my frogs, I didn't want to just get them on a lark and I wanted to provide as best I could but it sounds like you're telling me everything I found out is like, the opposite of what I should be doing
 

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Please do search here to confirm what I (and anyone, especially a business that is trying to sell you something) am saying. Pay attention to the reasons people give for their claims. The reasons you'll find here for not using that layer of sphagnum are: the frogs can't get to any drier substrate when they need to, and it rots the leaf litter prematurely, and it can rot plant stems from too much moisture.

The fogger (1) isn't necessary, and (2) saturates the air with liquid water that settles out on all surfaces, including the frogs who need to be able to regulate their exposure to water. The misting adds water to the viv, and adjusting ventilation maintains humidity; nothing else is necessary.

Tincs may be less arboreal, but that just means (if it is true at all, which I don't think it is) that they only climb a a handful of feet rather than a handful of meters up, and that they spend relatively more time on the ground than a species that hardly comes down. They really do need the extra traversable surface area provided by climbing opportunities, but since this is easy to provide (more branches/ramps/ledges), no big deal. :)

Again, please confirm everything you hear (about everything, not just animal care), and if I (or anyone) is incorrect, say so, or ask for reasons or other clarification.
 
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Discussion Starter #10
Please do search here to confirm what I (and anyone, especially a business that is trying to sell you something) am saying. Pay attention to the reasons people give for their claims. The reasons you'll find here for not using that layer of sphagnum are: the frogs can't get to any drier substrate when they need to, and it rots the leaf litter prematurely, and it can rot plant stems from too much moisture.

The fogger (1) isn't necessary, and (2) saturates the air with liquid water that settles out on all surfaces, including the frogs who need to be able to regulate their exposure to water. The misting adds water to the viv, and adjusting ventilation maintains humidity; nothing else is necessary.

Tincs may be less arboreal, but that just means (if it is true at all, which I don't think it is) that they only climb a a handful of feet rather than a handful of meters up, and that they spend relatively more time on the ground than a species that hardly comes down. They really do need the extra traversable surface area provided by climbing opportunities, but since this is easy to provide (more branches/ramps/ledges), no big deal. :)

Again, please confirm everything you hear (about everything, not just animal care), and if I (or anyone) is incorrect, say so, or ask for reasons or other clarification.
Thank you very much for all the help. I'm going to do what I can in the short term by adding more branches and leaf litter and removing the moss, but next month I'm going to build a much more robust terrarium for my frogs to be sure using this new information. Thanks so much for all the help.
 

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As immersion injury is a set up for infections and also a mechanical hazard in itself.
Would you be able to elaborate on immersion injuries a little? I hand spray and want to make sure I’m not overlooking something obvious. I searched “immersion injury” but nothing relevant came up. Thanks!
 

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Its a medical/veterinary term for water being aspirated by unavoidable means to the extent of interfering with pulmonary function.

Personally i avoid spraying tiny specimens directly or too heavily.
 

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If you search for "dart frog immersion injury" you might not find information.

Just as if you look up "Taiwan Beauty Snake arterial occlusion" , same.

It depends if the vet or academic party wrote a paper on a case.

No need for extreme precautions just common sense. It is very, Very common new owner behavior to over lavish in applying humidity.
 

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I may be getting a little old. Thanks soc.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
So with all that out of the way, if my frog has a submersion injury what can I do to help it recover?
 

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I think it would be good manually mist for now, if you can. Better lightly, briefly. Try to avoid temperature drops and stressors. Put feeding stations in the environment to allow easier monitor of feeding, as well as making it easy for him to see and zip as many flies as possible. Energy expense for feeding and reposing in cover.

Sometimes water aspirated can be absorbed. If the frog is warm and nourished he may not become more ill and could recover. Growth and development can be a positive flip side to being a little neo.

Its duration of unescapable drench that can cause problem in a small environment without easily accessed cavernous cover or foliage harbor.
 

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If it was my frog, I would sink a wide extremely shallow lid or exo terra 'feeding dish' ( the "water" dish is different, too deep.) with a few flat pebbles in an ergonomic strategy along the interior edge and let the environment dry off a little.

But this requires some frequent care and observance. But I enjoy micromanaging animals that have come under my care by people who are anxious or desire to relinquish the trouble. There have been many.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Update: I removed the moss and added more places to hide, and reduced the misting and turned off the fogger. I'm also keeping the tank around 75F. How long should I wait to see if the frog recovers before I do something more serious?
The frog's activity is normal enough: I have only had them for a week so they are all still skittish about moving around the tank, but I see them on occasion hunting for food. I am just worried because they always look like they are choking and I do not want them to suffer unnecessarily.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I feel like a bad person, I've only had this frog for a week and it's sick from something I had no idea could happen. I know better for the future now but I feel absolutely devastated
 
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