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Ive used ABG, straight sphagnum & clay ...
My plan is to use clay in all of my tanks, for all of my frogs ... not just Pumilio.
I also plan on incorporating UVB on all my tanks too.

Is it necessary? ... Absolutely not.
I've been plenty successful without it.

Why do I choose to use it then? ...
Bc for myself personally, any additional benefit whether it be large or small, is worth it for me. Plus if used properly, the life of clay as a substrate is substantially higher than soil from what I understand.

Why do others not use it? ...
I think price plays a big factor. Purchasing clay is not cheap compared to using soil.
By the time I'm done building all of my tanks, I'll probably be close to $1000 in the hole, just in substrate.
Another factor is probably that clay appears to be a tedious process to make it properly & I'd rather just pay someone to make it for me.

To each his own ... as stated, plenty of people are plenty successful without the use of clay.
You dont need it. Its a luxury to use it IMO & is all personal preference. Much like most other aspects of our hobby.
 

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Thanks for providing your experiences with the different substrates. Due to the failures of the internet to convey tone, my question was misconstrued as a statement. I've only seen positives to clay aside from initial setup cost.
 

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A little off topic but, I am curious.. Pumilo mentioned supplementing with UVB light.. anyone do this/care to share their method? (other then Lexan and starfire material being used).
 

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Interesting discussion.

I might grind up my leftover hot wing chicken and bayback rib bones into a fine power and integrate it into the substrate.
 

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This thread is making it a tough decision for me. I have a group of pumilio coming. I already have the ABG, but it isn't too late to go with clay instead.

Torn....
 

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Ive used ABG, straight sphagnum & clay ...
My plan is to use clay in all of my tanks, for all of my frogs ... not just Pumilio.
I also plan on incorporating UVB on all my tanks too.

Is it necessary? ... Absolutely not.
I've been plenty successful without it.

Why do I choose to use it then? ...
Bc for myself personally, any additional benefit whether it be large or small, is worth it for me. Plus if used properly, the life of clay as a substrate is substantially higher than soil from what I understand.

Why do others not use it? ...
I think price plays a big factor. Purchasing clay is not cheap compared to using soil.
By the time I'm done building all of my tanks, I'll probably be close to $1000 in the hole, just in substrate.
Another factor is probably that clay appears to be a tedious process to make it properly & I'd rather just pay someone to make it for me.

To each his own ... as stated, plenty of people are plenty successful without the use of clay.
You dont need it. Its a luxury to use it IMO & is all personal preference. Much like most other aspects of our hobby.
Nicely put Nick. I umm...guess I'll just go cut some glass.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
thank you everyone for all the information!
 

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I do have a couple of tanks I acquired from someone else set up with clay, I have to say they are easily twice as heavy as the tanks I have set up if not more, so for those with racks that should be considered. Doing the best for yuor frogs as what most of us are about, expense aside there are a lot of right ways things can be done. It's nice when a civil discussion can ensue when these questions are asked, as for absolutes, there are very few
 

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Some of my pumilio tanks have clay backgrounds and some do not. None of them have clay floor.

The reason for clay substrate seems to be making calcium available to baby pumilio through direct absorption or eating springs/isopods that have collected calcium by moving through the substrate.

I have three questions.

First, is their any actual data showing that clay substrate helps reduce MOODS.

Second, if I am feeding dusted fruit flies, calcium gets on the leaf litter and brom leaves. If the frogs are walking in the leaf litter and sitting on leaves and springs/isos are moving through the leaf litter, wouldn't the same processes take place that take place with a clay substrate, maybe even more so?

Third, many of the MOODS deaths happen after the babies have already been taking dusted fruit flies, sometimes for months. Is a clay substrate making any difference at that point?

Thanks
 

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I have been using ABG mix for several years now and have recently begun to create a pocket here and there on the tank floor for clay. No big deal, easy to do. I have no idea what the actual statistics are or science is, I just know that the more bases I cover, the better off my frogs probably are.

I also dust regularly with a couple different supplements from different manufacturers. I have also started redoing the tanks and vent locations to accommodate the addition of UVB, both for the plants and the frogs.

I do know some serious breeders who use only clay substrate covered with leaves for their grow out tanks and seem to be having success with it.

You don't have to spend big dough or days mixing, just get a bag of Turface from a good garden center and that works fine. Looks just like kitty litter, only I believe it has been fired.
 

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Just a thought: If calcium deficiency is a problem for the pumilio froglets, would it not be possilbe to aid this by adding a uvb bulb to the viv? I know from other reptiles that UVB is imperative or else metabolic bone disease is very likely, so could this not be a fix for froglets as well?
 

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It could however unlike reptiles, we don't have anything that allows penetration. Glass filters UVB and even the mesh most people utilize for vents filters majority due to the small holes. You would need the wire mesh that are on top of reptile enclosures, however that would prevent a problem a it would allow FF escapes which no one wants.

On a large tank this is much more plausable due to the unlikely nature of FF escapes at the top (depending if it is a tall tank or not). Also with the large mesh holes it would be harder to regulate the humidity.
 

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It could however unlike reptiles, we don't have anything that allows penetration. Glass filters UVB and even the mesh most people utilize for vents filters majority due to the small holes. You would need the wire mesh that are on top of reptile enclosures, however that would prevent a problem a it would allow FF escapes which no one wants.
This makes me wonder... Why don't more people use Starfire glass? You'd be able to solve both those problems since UV can penetrate it and fruit flies can't.

Is it the cost?

I've haven't looked into finding it locally yet, but Glass Cages sells it for $10/sq ft. So it's like $20 for an 18x18x24 exo. That doesn't seem to be that bad to me.

Obviously, using both starfire and a clay substrate would be the best. However, if costs were a concern and you were choosing one over the other... I would think the glass would be a better option since it is easily reusable (please don't hate me Doug haha)
 

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This makes me wonder... Why don't more people use Starfire glass? You'd be able to solve both those problems since UV can penetrate it and fruit flies can't.

Is it the cost?

I've haven't looked into finding it locally yet, but Glass Cages sells it for $10/sq ft. So it's like $20 for an 18x18x24 exo. That doesn't seem to be that bad to me.

Obviously, using both starfire and a clay substrate would be the best. However, if costs were a concern and you were choosing one over the other... I would think the glass would be a better option since it is easily reusable (please don't hate me Doug haha)
Starfire glass? Can you tell us more? I'm unaware of this.

Starphire Glass | Home <---- ? That stuff?
 

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This makes me wonder... Why don't more people use Starfire glass?
Working on that as we speak. :) I'm waiting on a UVB radiometer, but will be testing two brands of lab-quality glass hopefully in the next few weeks. Unfortunately it is significantly more expensive than standard glass, though. :eek: We'll see.
 

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Working on that as we speak. :) I'm waiting on a UVB radiometer, but will be testing two brands of lab-quality glass hopefully in the next few weeks. Unfortunately it is significantly more expensive than standard glass, though. :eek: We'll see.
Snuck that in right before my post... That's awesome you guys are working on finding something. That thread I dug up kinda bummed me out haha.
 

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Snuck that in right before my post... That's awesome you guys are working on finding something. That thread I dug up kinda bummed me out haha.
I'm excited to test the glass, but I agree that the information found online isn't promising, which is probably why it's not already been marketed for this purpose. Still, can't hurt to test & see. :)
 

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Marcus a member from England used the EU version of Starphire glass on his obligate tanks and posted pictures of his frogs basking. Although the pass through maybe a small percentage compared to a screen or nothing at all the low iron glass does allow for some. Wither it is worth the hassle or not is up for debate. I will be interested to see what Mike's test results are.

sent from my Galaxy S lll
 
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