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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have 2 intermedius that I bought as a "proven pair" in october. I haven't heard any calling, and yesterday I noticed some wrestling. There doesn't seem to be one that is dominant over the other, they both seem to take turns trying to pin each other. When the male imi in the next tank starts calling in the morning, their wresting seems to get worse. I'm thinking that they are both female and am probably going to have to seperate them. I haven't had any aggression issues w my other thumbs, so any help or experience would be appreciated. Thanks, mike. I will try to get individual pics up later. Amphibian Frog Poison dart frog Organism Phyllobates


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I purchased a probable pair at around the same time. They were in the same enclosure for about a month with no aggression and one following the othe around. After a month one was on top of the other with the bottom on trying to jump around. I had to seperate them as this is a sign if female on female aggression in imitators. I would split yours and put one in with your calling male. If they act like a mating pair I think it is safe to say you have to females. Also if splitting them up and the one left by itself does not start to call that is another sign it is a female. If you ultimately determine they are both female you can either try and get the person you bought them from to exchange one for a male or try trading or selling it. I believe females a harder to come by as there are typically more males than females that morph out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The male in the tank next to it is w a female (proven pair). The guy I got them from is a good guy, but doesn't have frogs any longer, I bought his whole collection. Most of the "proven frogs I got from him have proved themselves. I need to get some better pics up, maybe someone can confirm their sexes.
Mike
 

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I don't have imitators, but I do have ranitomeya varadero and benedicta. When my male varadero sings, his mate in his viv responds, and the single female benedicta in the viv adjacent to his responds. She jumps on the glass and does a "shaky dance". If the female varadero is nearby, she acts agressively toward that female. So I agree with Chris. Separate the two frogs. In your photo, the frog on top appears to have a female shape.

Based on my experience with varaderos, the male sings within 30 minutes of being isolated from viv mates. I once thought I had two female varaderos together and one was attacking the other. It was really bad. One was holding the other down, then a few minutes later, the opposite. The final blow was was when one cornered the other in the corner of the tank and was pile driving it head first into the substrate.:eek: So i separated them and both started singing (obviously males). So that is why I suggest separating them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks for confirming. I will seperate them tomorrow. We will see what happens. For the last few months they have really seemed like a pair, they were almost always together with no sign of agression, then 2 days ago it got crazy.
Thanks again, mike.
 

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I used to have a few pairs of intermedius. I had two males that grew up together but started fighting after I found a female for them. I had to separate them because they wouldn't stop. I would recommend moving one of them before they get too crazy.

 

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This is a good thread. I was always under the impression that aggression was minimal with Imi's. I bought 4 varadero last year and 2 have started breeding. Now I find myself in the same situation. Our proven female is constantly bullying another "assumed" female. We just finished constructing another 40b vert so once I get some isopods and leaf litter the 2nd female and another one we assume is male will be transferred. So we will probably end up with 2 viable pairs. It is interesting to see them fight. Especially when a male is involved. but like others have said, it must be 2 females.
 

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I don't have imitators, but I do have ranitomeya varadero and benedicta. When my male varadero sings, his mate in his viv responds, and the single female benedicta in the viv adjacent to his responds. She jumps on the glass and does a "shaky dance". If the female varadero is nearby, she acts agressively toward that female. So I agree with Chris. Separate the two frogs. In your photo, the frog on top appears to have a female shape.
I have to doubt that the benedicta is responding to the imitator call. Imitator calls and fantastica calls are significantly different. It's common to witness two phenomena and assume causation, but I'd be careful.

Two females across two species can be aggressive toward one another. Body shape within the same genus can trigger aggressive tendencies. If you're keeping your benedicta and imitators together you need to separate them. If you are keeping them in separate tanks you should find a divider to keep the frogs from seeing one another.

This is a good thread. I was always under the impression that aggression was minimal with Imi's. I bought 4 varadero last year and 2 have started breeding. Now I find myself in the same situation. Our proven female is constantly bullying another "assumed" female. We just finished constructing another 40b vert so once I get some isopods and leaf litter the 2nd female and another one we assume is male will be transferred. So we will probably end up with 2 viable pairs. It is interesting to see them fight. Especially when a male is involved. but like others have said, it must be 2 females.
Imitator aggression seems to me to be under reported. I always recommend keeping imitators exclusively in pairs. There are numerous stories of groups and trios of imitators whittling themselves down to a single pair (although people tend to focus far more on the success stories than the tragedies). This could be due to the semi-monogamous behavior imitators display.
 

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Do you still have these 2 females? And what type of imitator are they? "Intermedius" "chazuta"?

I have quite a few males and would be more than willing to trade!
Intermedius and Chazuta are to be considered 2 different frogs. They should not be crossed. Chazuta is a known locality and should be kept seperate from Intermedius which is not a known locality. Of course I am posting this for others as you have made it clear you don't really care about mixing up whatever lines you feel like crossbreeding.
 

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Intermedius and Chazuta are to be considered 2 different frogs. They should not be crossed. Chazuta is a known locality and should be kept seperate from Intermedius which is not a known locality. Of course I am posting this for others as you have made it clear you don't really care about mixing up whatever lines you feel like crossbreeding.

I understand that. That is why I asked. I dont crossbread any of my imitators, and I have 16 of them.

And I never said I would crossbread, you are saying that of your own assumptions! I mearly don't disagree with breeding frogs for color. If someone wants a frog specifically because it has more orange or green or blue in it that they can hopefully pass on to the offspring, than I say go for it.
 

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At the moment I have these morphs:

Tarapoto - 2 pairs, 2 extra males
Varidero - 1 pair, 2 extra males
Chazuta - 1 pair
Intermedius - 4 males

I am looking for females as you can see. I am also looking to add other Morphs this fall.
 

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Didn't you say you had a 90 gallon(or biggertank, 100+?) with SIXTEEN Ranitomeya imitators in there? Which morph(s) was in that one tank?
 

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Didn't you say you had a 90 gallon(or biggertank, 100+?) with SIXTEEN Ranitomeya imitators in there? Which morph(s) was in that one tank?
I still have that tank. It was full of 16 Tarapoto in a group. I got rid of all but the ones I still have just recently (last 2 weeks) in a couple of trades/sales with some local friends because of the aggression (started after I installed my MistKing). Right now I just have 1 pair in there. I seperated out the other pair I kept and my other 2 males are in another tank together (they don't wrestle for now).

All my other morphs are in there own tanks.
 

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One of my neighbors has a group of Varadero in a 120g set up that are doing great (I got the 4 I currently have from his group as a trade for 4 of my Tarapoto). I figured I'd give it a try, well it only worked for about 2 years and then they all started showing aggression when I installed the misting system. I have no idea how many he has in it though.
 

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Thanks for the information. Glad to see you keep all of the Ranitomeya imitator separate from one another, based on morph. I like to hear about good responsibility like that! :)

Those R. imitators -- no matter which morph -- seem to always find a way to fight down to one pair or so, for whatever reason...other than monogamy. Sometimes we have to learn the hard way for this to come to pass...

Where are you located by the way? You can place that information in your profile so its displayed in the top right of each of your posts -- like mine is -- by clicking on the "User CP" tab at the top, and then "Edit Your Details" respectively..........this makes future ventures -- and possible transactions -- easier because people will know where you reside. ;)
 
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