Hybrids poll
1 - 20 of 133 Posts
Some of the problem with hybrids are
1) they take away space that can be used to keep the normal morphs sustainable in captivity
2) they can be bred into normal populations which impacts the long-term genetic diversity of normal populations
3) if they appear similar to a "standard" morph they can be sold as that morph (or aquired by someone who then posts on here what morph does this look like and gets a visual id and then breeds the hybrid into the population)
Ed
1) they take away space that can be used to keep the normal morphs sustainable in captivity
2) they can be bred into normal populations which impacts the long-term genetic diversity of normal populations
3) if they appear similar to a "standard" morph they can be sold as that morph (or aquired by someone who then posts on here what morph does this look like and gets a visual id and then breeds the hybrid into the population)
Ed
Joined
·
30 Posts
Just look at the ball pythons and leopard geckos. People don't want the normal animals anymore. It's all about albinos, ghosts, melanistic, leucistic, enigma, snow, patternless, ect. ect. ect. Back when I was breeding ball pythons, every buyer wanted to know what type of hets I had. I feel that if we start hybrid darts, it will turn into people just wanting color morphs, and not wanting the genuine animals we strive to produce.
Joined
·
1,895 Posts
Difference being we are not dealing with a single species, as with leopard geckos and ball pythons, just manipulating a single genome. We are talking about mixing genetic information from different species that likely never 'mix' in the wild.
Jer, something else you might want to consider when thinking about these 'designer herps' is that the genetics can gets so screwed up, importation of WC animals might be necessary to introduce wild-type genetics back into the population. I know Brent has mentioned this with corn snakes, for example.
Jer,Jer said:
in this you could not be more wrong.
Have you seen the efforts of TWI/ASN?
http://www.treewalkers.org/projects/ASN/
It blows me away the efforts this group does for your "pet trade". I understand, you pay your money so you can do what you want but please don't try and undermine the hard work of others.
Pete
Joined
·
348 Posts
What would be the point? "I want a frog with a red left leg, blue right leg, yellow head, and purple-and-orange-spotted body".. something like that? These animals are already colorful enough, and come with a rich, localized history and native environment. Hybridize and you lose that.
My feeling is that in general this group of hobbyists are purists. Bastardize a line and watch how fast its shunned.
My feeling is that in general this group of hobbyists are purists. Bastardize a line and watch how fast its shunned.
Joined
·
2,243 Posts
See this: general-discussion/topic2375.html
and this: general-discussion/topic31840.html?hilit=hybrids
and this: breeding-eggs-tadpoles/topic37322.html?hilit=hybrids
Being aware of past discussions is also a good way to prevent our posts from going round and round.
and this: general-discussion/topic31840.html?hilit=hybrids
and this: breeding-eggs-tadpoles/topic37322.html?hilit=hybrids
Being aware of past discussions is also a good way to prevent our posts from going round and round.
Joined
·
3,332 Posts
I think that most people who want to hybridize don't realize that these frogs come in just about any color and pattern you can think of. Not to mention morphs of a particular species prefer like-colored animals, and if people start hybridizing, there will be issues with animals not knowing what to breed with.
It's just a silly notion. Why screw up what nature got right?
It's just a silly notion. Why screw up what nature got right?
Joined
·
1,316 Posts
Even if people try and dismiss the importance of keeping the gene pools untainted, or the conservation attempts, or the fact that 1/3 of amphibians are in danger and in drastic decline. After all "they are my frogs" argument, and curiosity, I fear that someone with good intent will end up unknowingly buy a hybrid at a show or online, than get into the hobby where if not recognized as a hybrid will than breed and sell with a non-hybrid and thus hurting the efforts that so many people are working for.
I find it slim that if someone is to create hybrids, and claims that they will never release them into the hobby, they are able to do so. Everyone here knows how much time/space/money is involved in keeping our collections. In many cases people sell their offspring to 1: offset some of cost of keeping them, 2: maintain the space they have available for their pets and not get over-run with hundreds of vivs, 3: because that is how the hobby grows.
With the years and years of possible commitment to the pets, are people going to be able to support and sustain generations of hybrids in their own facilities? I would imagine that they will end up being sold off, and what was first a selfish "I want to see what happens" eventually hurts a lot of people and frogs in the long run.
I find it slim that if someone is to create hybrids, and claims that they will never release them into the hobby, they are able to do so. Everyone here knows how much time/space/money is involved in keeping our collections. In many cases people sell their offspring to 1: offset some of cost of keeping them, 2: maintain the space they have available for their pets and not get over-run with hundreds of vivs, 3: because that is how the hobby grows.
With the years and years of possible commitment to the pets, are people going to be able to support and sustain generations of hybrids in their own facilities? I would imagine that they will end up being sold off, and what was first a selfish "I want to see what happens" eventually hurts a lot of people and frogs in the long run.
Joined
·
547 Posts
Well out of close to 50 votes, it seems there are only 2 others who agree with you....Jer said:
rob
Joined
·
290 Posts
I think this question should be modified or made more specific:evolvstll said:
"Should hybrids be produced by hobbyists? If yes, when and why."
To this question I vote "NO" (the reasons for which have been outlines very well in this thread and other threads). With the advent of TWI and Frog tracks the odds of non-labeled hybrids being incorporated into existing representative captive populations of frogs is greatly reduced (but still not impossible).
on the other side of the issue:
"Should hybrids be produced for scientific gains that may benefit humans, frogs, or other organisms? If yes, when and why"
All of our food crops represent hybrids across lines, populations, and even species. "lines" of laboratory animals (flies/mice/rats/etc) are often produced for better scientific research.
A hypothetical example that is also not an inconceivable possibility:
A frog is found to produce and amazing that will send a particularly common cancer into complete remission. Unfortunately there is no known way to synthesize this drug, the only way to get it is to extract it from the frogs. The frogs are raised in captivity in large numbers but still the drug is only produced in a small amount for frog, thousands of frogs are produced just to get enough drug to save one person. Some frog researchers find another species that produces a similar chemical that has no effect on cancer but is produced by this other species at levels 10000 times that of the one that produces the active drug. In this case hybridization and selective breeding, couple with other genetic tools could be used to breed frogs that produce as much of the drug as possible per frog. In the long run this may not be the ideal way to produce the drug but will save thousands of lives while alternative production means are researched.
Read up on the production and history of Taxol:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paclitaxel
beat em to saying the exact same thing, except at this time it's over 50 with only 2 other sympathizers... pretty resounding statement. I don't know if Jer is a troll or not, but by the posts I have seen by him or her it sounds like another PDFanatic, Bocomo, etc...rjmarchisi said:
Yep, I've mentioned this several times. When albino corn snakes hit the scene, it only took a few years before it was pretty much impossible to find plain old wild type corn snakes that weren't carrying some anomylous genetic trait. So people continued to capture corn snakes from the wild to satisfy their craving for the good old fashioned wild type snake that evolution created. Same goes for California kingsnakes. But we don't have to just look at herps. When was the last time you saw a normal golden hamster, or a wild type guinea pig? How about a zebra finch? The point is that these hybrids and designer bred animals tend to dominate the captive populations and swamp out the original wild type gene pools. That leaves no other option than to snatch more animals from the wild to satisfy the demand for the evolutionary original.flyangler18 said:
And I would not declare ASN as the savior of our problems just yet. Just because we have a system to keep the genetics of captive populations managed does not mean our populations are "saved". We only have a tiny fraction of the captive populations enrolled in the program so there needs to be much more participation from the hobby, and much more work to do before we can declare it a success.
Joined
·
755 Posts
Yes the question is directed at the hobby, thanks for clarifying. However just because they may be used in a lab or for research does not ensure they would not make their way to the hobby somehow, just a thought.
The poll is for us in the hobby - thanks - looks like a landslide though
The poll is for us in the hobby - thanks - looks like a landslide though
I agree with Brent and can back this with many years expierence with Lady Gouldian finches. Although there is habitat destuction and a mite that has caused great damage to their numbers in the wild, yet try to find a pure bred red breasted male or other natural (yellow and black breasted) form from ANY breeder these days is impossible. They are all split to some hybrid, so it seems.
I do understand though that "new" and "different" speaks volumes. Look how we all clammor to be the first to get the "new" Peruvian imports, Perhaps we should all be figuring out a way, with this in mind, to bring to the USA all the varieties of frog that are not available to us now or that have fallen out of favor.This especially before habitat destruction and disease take their toll. Perhaps we should follow what seems to be a "zoo" mentaility, conservation vs. exploitation.
Kudos to those individuals who support our limited means of habitat support and those doing research and conservation.
B.
I do understand though that "new" and "different" speaks volumes. Look how we all clammor to be the first to get the "new" Peruvian imports, Perhaps we should all be figuring out a way, with this in mind, to bring to the USA all the varieties of frog that are not available to us now or that have fallen out of favor.This especially before habitat destruction and disease take their toll. Perhaps we should follow what seems to be a "zoo" mentaility, conservation vs. exploitation.
Kudos to those individuals who support our limited means of habitat support and those doing research and conservation.
B.
There will always be two seperate camps as far as hybrids go. And the discussion will never be won.
I for one, perfer to keep things the way God made them. I wish I could keep some of the frogs I passed up in the mid nineties due to price. They are no longer available in the market. For this reason, I would say I am a purist in regards to PDFs.
Some, breed animals solely for the money and don't care of conservation efforts or anything else.
PDFs as well as all reptiles have came way down in the past 15 years due to increased availablity thru captive breeding. As the supply came in line with the demand, prices fell fast.
So, in order to make money , some will try to make hybrids that the other breeders don't have and charge insane prices for them. But in a couple years, others will be breeding them as well, and again the price will drop, so on to something else.
I for one, perfer to keep things the way God made them. I wish I could keep some of the frogs I passed up in the mid nineties due to price. They are no longer available in the market. For this reason, I would say I am a purist in regards to PDFs.
Some, breed animals solely for the money and don't care of conservation efforts or anything else.
PDFs as well as all reptiles have came way down in the past 15 years due to increased availablity thru captive breeding. As the supply came in line with the demand, prices fell fast.
So, in order to make money , some will try to make hybrids that the other breeders don't have and charge insane prices for them. But in a couple years, others will be breeding them as well, and again the price will drop, so on to something else.
As far as i am concerned, the only motivation driving people to want to hybridize darts is pure, unmitigated greed. The only reason to produce a new hybride or moprh of any animal is so that you can take that animal to market and make a killing on it. I think most of the people that have spoken in adovocacy of hybridizing on this board see darts as an unexploited resource and have visions of blizzard lizards dancing in their head.
Just my two cents.
Just my two cents.
Actually out of 95 votes about 6 others agree with me.rjmarchisi said:
And if anyone actually takes this poll as an accurate estimate of the actual numbers in society, feel free to dispense yourself a slap from the slap self dispenser. The great majority of the members on this forum are TWI/ASN advocates and so the numbers obtained from the poll should be far from surprising. This poll is like going into a bar and then taking a poll to see how many people prefer alcoholic beverages over non-alcoholic beverages, again the results should not be surprising.
1 - 20 of 133 Posts
