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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Before I ask my question, this is not in reference to mixing, or multi-species tanks, or ethics, or evolution. So, please keep those comments to yourself.

With that said, here is my question.

With the recent thread to adopt some homeless frogs, there was a huge arguement about hybrids, And I fail to see why these frogs are labeled as Hybrids.

Why are these frogs called hybrids? I ask, because that seems to be the consences.

A yellow Auratus is a hybrid. It is a vivarium bred cross between a Leuc and an Auratus. The offspring of two different species of frogs.

I don't see why the offspring of two color morphs of the same species is referred to as a hybrid?
I agree the blood line is not pure, but a Tinc is still a Tinc.

I am not suggesting that crossing area specific color morphs with each other is ok or should be done ( I personally think the fancy geckos and snakes look fake, and look out of place in a natural vivarium) I am just asking why they are labeled Hybrids, because I don't see them that way.
 

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I am not sure which thread you are referring to just because I haven't been on in a few days. But I will try to explain this.

When looking at a species like Tinc's, you are also looking at morphological differences stipulated by various boundaries, environmental conditions, and other various aspects that have given them different looks, calls, and ability to adapt.

The reason that most don't like to mix is because of various reasons (This is not all of them just a few):

1) Don't wish to create hybrids due not being able to distinguish between a true line and mixed line.
2) Introduce pathogens to our frogs like Chytrid, parasites, and other ones that say a Azureus has adapted to, to survive in its given locations.
3)Because we don't want it to be come as money hungry and destroyed as the reptile industry.

So that is the stance that most hobbyist take. Tinc's are not just Tinc's but rather morphological Tinc's to be honest.

We could label them as monsters, beasts, adapted changes, etc. but hybrids are in reference to two different items being cross bred to create a new item. This is how it is in ALL situations. When you cross breed two different species of GTP you still get a hybrid however in that species the concesus within the hobbyist is to allow it. In this hobby it is not accepted.

Hopefully that answers all the questions, if not please feel free to ask more. I will do my best to answer in a timely manner because of school it makes it difficult to check.
 

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People that are passionate about dart frogs are just trying to keep the lines pure. With a lot of frogs often it is just the color pattern or markings on the frog that allows us to tell which line they're from. If you start mixing the different lines it becomes muddy and unclear which one is which. And them some may think its a whole new line. The more frogs that are mixed and put out into the hobby the more likely we are to lose some of the original color morphs. With so many different colors and patterns in darts there's no reason to muddy the waters. When you see a labrador/ german shepherd mix you can tell ...there is no confusion....but tincs mixed you may not be able to tell. Then you have mutt frogs. We just want to keep them pure is all. When you find a group like this its best to pull them out of the hobby then risk someone breeding them again and having another generation out there which could go into unknowing hands.
 

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I'm no dart frog expert, but here's my 2 cents.

People would prefer not to mix two color morphs from the same species because people are trying to keep the frogs that enter into the pet trade as accurate to wild populations as possible. These color morphs represent distinct populations within the same species that have evolved slightly different due to genetic and geographical isolation, meaning they don't breed together in the wild.

You're correct in saying that two tinc morphs breeding will still make a tinc, but it is a tinc not found in the wild and therefore is classified in the hobby as a hybrid. I'm guessing there are quite a few peer-reviewed papers that attempt to study these differences, like this one:
Non-gradual variation in colour morphs of the stra... [Mol Ecol. 2007] - PubMed result

Like Venom said, it looks like many in this hobby don't want dart frogs to end up as the next ball python, where new crosses are literally being hatched out every day, and the beauty of a natural pattern is basically lost from the pet community.

Here's a quick search in google scholar http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q...ndrobates&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Apparently, no one read my post....

I plainly stated this wasn't about mixing or cross breeding........


My curiousity is to the label of Hybrid itself. Only that and that alone.

Why is a mutt a hybrid? The term Hybrid usually implies desirable traits not naturally found in the parents genes.
 

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Apparently, no one read my post....

I plainly stated this wasn't about mixing or cross breeding........


My curiousity is to the label of Hybrid itself. Only that and that alone.

Why is a mutt a hybrid? The term Hybrid usually implies desirable traits not naturally found in the parents genes.
Yes I did read your post.

You're correct in saying that two tinc morphs breeding will still make a tinc, but it is a tinc not found in the wild and therefore is classified in the hobby as a hybrid.
And there's your answer then, if that's all you were looking for. Hybrids can also occur between different populations of the same species.

Here's the definition from wikipedia after a quick search:

The second type of hybrid consists of crosses between populations, breeds or cultivars within a single species. This meaning is often used in plant and animal breeding, where hybrids are commonly produced and selected because they have desirable characteristics not found or inconsistently present in the parent individuals or populations. This flow of genetic material between populations or races is often called hybridization.

That answer it for ya?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
not really, but thank you.

See, like it says in the definition "desireable characteristics" is why I don't see why the use of the word.

Does that make sense?

Hybrid=Good......Crossbreeding Frogs=Bad

It's the word that bothers me.
 

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Scott R.
I agree 100 percent with your thought process. While I was in college we were always taught that a true hybrid was a cross between 2 different distinct species. Not between 2 different color morphs of the same species. But like others on here have correctly stated, it comes down to what definition you choose to use. I totally agree with others on this board that it is important to not let PDF's fall into the same mess that a lot of other herps have fallen into with selective breeding to create crazy color morphs.

Jim G.
 

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Well see now that's the problem with wikipedia, you chose the one sentence in their definition that give an example. If you read the rest that they provided: The second type of hybrid consists of crosses between populations, breeds or cultivars within a single species. This flow of genetic material between populations or races is often called hybridization.

If your problem lies in the term "hybrid" I don't see how you're going to get an answer that satisfies your problem with the term. You may not see it as a hybrid but, by definition, it is. We did discuss this in multiple bio classes while I was in college as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
We are on the same page. I completely support keeping blood lines pure.

My problem is the word Hybrid makes it sound cool. And while the vast majority of the people here wouldn't buy them, others will. And a new person that sees the word Hybrid could go a different direction.

I am not an advocate of telling new people to the hobby it is ok to mix. My problem with the latest heated debate was the title " How can we convince people........" I read that as " How can we force people to do what we want"

But let's not go down that road again.:)


I just don't like the word Hybrid and the glorification that comes with it the majority of the time. Yes, here it is bad, but this site is not the world as a whole. And the word itself seems to me like it could have the opposite affect.

That make sense at all?
 

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Well see now that's the problem with wikipedia, you chose the one sentence in their definition that give an example. If you read the rest that they provided: The second type of hybrid consists of crosses between populations, breeds or cultivars within a single species. This flow of genetic material between populations or races is often called hybridization.

If your problem lies in the term "hybrid" I don't see how you're going to get an answer that satisfies your problem with the term. You may not see it as a hybrid but, by definition, it is. We did discuss this in multiple bio classes while I was in college as well.

The use of the phrase of hybrid/hybridization is more common in today's parlance than it was historically. The term that was used to cover within species crosses between different populations was crossbreeding and there are discussions on crossbred vigor and outcrossing depression (so the argument on whether or not it is desirable even in wild populations should be considered suspect). There have been several discussions on the board about the use of hybrid to describe crosses between two populations of the same species.

The term has historically been consistentliy used to describe crosses of different populations of plants.. The increase in usage may be more from the lack of good alternative options in the language and an increase in research usages.
 

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We are on the same page. I completely support keeping blood lines pure.

My problem is the word Hybrid makes it sound cool. And while the vast majority of the people here wouldn't buy them, others will. And a new person that sees the word Hybrid could go a different direction.

I am not an advocate of telling new people to the hobby it is ok to mix. My problem with the latest heated debate was the title " How can we convince people........" I read that as " How can we force people to do what we want"

But let's not go down that road again.:)


I just don't like the word Hybrid and the glorification that comes with it the majority of the time. Yes, here it is bad, but this site is not the world as a whole. And the word itself seems to me like it could have the opposite affect.

That make sense at all?
So I think I'm understanding what you're saying here now, that the term hybrid is seen by the general public as a positive term, something to be sought out? I guess in my past I personally have never attached any positive or negative traits to the word so I was missing that. It is just another biological process to me. I work in the natural resource sciences, and most of the hybrids that I come across on a daily basis are not desirable (but those are species crosses) so I guess on a day-to-day basis I see more negatives than positives. If I was in agriculture though I'm guessing I would see more positive hybrids than negative.

I thought your original question pertained to why we use the term hybrid when dealing with the same species, so that's why I went that route in answering :)
 

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So I think I'm understanding what you're saying here now, that the term hybrid is seen by the general public as a positive term, something to be sought out? I guess in my past I personally have never attached any positive or negative traits to the word so I was missing that. It is just another biological process to me. I work in the natural resource sciences, and most of the hybrids that I come across on a daily basis are not desirable (but those are species crosses) so I guess on a day-to-day basis I see more negatives than positives. If I was in agriculture though I'm guessing I would see more positive hybrids than negative.

I thought your original question pertained to why we use the term hybrid when dealing with the same species, so that's why I went that route in answering :)
This paper reviews the issues fairly well of inbreeding and outbreeding....

http://www.montana.edu/~wwwbi/staff/creel/bio480/edmands 2007.pdf

Ed
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Yes, that is were I am coming from. Hybrids in agriculture for example yield more bushels per acre and are drought tolerant and diesease resistant. Good things.

Like Ed said, we use the word more often today, but I don't know that we always use it appropriately.

And that is what my original question was.......Why not use a alternative adjective.
 

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Yes, that is were I am coming from. Hybrids in agriculture for example yield more bushels per acre and are drought tolerant and diesease resistant. Good things.

Like Ed said, we use the word more often today, but I don't know that we always use it appropriately.

And that is what my original question was.......Why not use a alternative adjective.
It's funny that agriculture has a positive spin even though there were probably hundreds if not thousands of unsuccessful crosses before a desirable product was created.
 

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It's funny that agriculture has a positive spin even though there were probably hundreds if not thousands of unsuccessful crosses before a desirable product was created.
It's interesting that you put a positive spin on frog hybrids, considering your statement above.
 
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Yes, that is were I am coming from. Hybrids in agriculture for example yield more bushels per acre and are drought tolerant and diesease resistant. Good things.

Like Ed said, we use the word more often today, but I don't know that we always use it appropriately.

And that is what my original question was.......Why not use a alternative adjective.
I see your point. Someone from the snake hobby would be more excited to buy a hybrid frog just getting into it as they see that as a positive thing.
 

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I've been around the community long enough that I forgot that "hybrid" isn't technically a dirty word and the word itself can carry a positive connotation in some situations. I guess I see your point.

In the situation you mentioned, I think "intergrade" is a more accurate term. People just apply the term "hybrid" as a conversational short-hand.
 
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