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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been working on setting up a dart frog vivarium in a 38 gallon tank. I have an idea of how I want it to look like. This includes a stream going diagonally down the tank. I started with pvc piping and siliconed sand and pebbles to it making it look more natural. I just don't really know how powerful of a pump I need for the stream? I was thinking at the bottom of the stream I'd have a small pool that would bring the water back down thru the false bottom and wrap back around to the pump. I also have been reading and a lot of people say you need a way to access the pump...I'm not quite sure how to do that because I will have to silicone the glass canopy to the tank so fruit flies won't escape. If anyone has advice I'd appreciate it!!
Thanks!
 

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Welcome to the hobby, your going to love it! As for the waterfall and stream there are a bunch of ways that you can make it. I would suggest that you use the search function. There you can see peoples style and technique. Good luck and show a construction thread.
 

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There's more than one way to skin a cat....

I suggest spending a couple hours looking at other peoples construction journals for ideas/help. There's a ton of great info to be found inside....
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I have a 20 gallon long tank that is already set up...with honestly too many darts in it for them to be comfortable...the 38 gallon originally had crested geckos but I got bored and decided to sell them at a reptile swap and use the money to go toward a new setup for my frogs. As of right now what I have for supplies consists of my 38 gal tank (obviously) with glass canopy, High Output florescent for the plants. I got the light on ebay for a really good price. Egg Crate for the false bottom already cut to fit, PVC pipe that has been cut down the middle and I have siliconed sand and pebbles to it so it has a natural look (I'm using this for the stream), I have two cans of Great Stuff foam (Most people recommended this to me), Eco earth for the plant substrate, I also have a huge supply of corkbark in different shapes and sizes and some drift wood that I've used in my ball python & gecko cages in the past. I just ordered a Mini Jet 606 online for my stream, I didn't want anything too powerful because I just want a slight stream nothing overwhelming. I work at a pet store so most of the time we aren't busy i spend my time brain storming how I want my tank to look. After doing some looking around I know I want to get some Air plants and silicone them to the background, from what I understand as long as you don't bother the leaves they are easy to take care of in high humidity settings.

I'm actually doing something with my frogs that a lot of people have said is a bad idea, but I've had them for almost a year now and I haven't lost any or had any problems with feeding. I have 6 frogs total, I started with just two Auratus (Green & Blue), Then added onto that and got two Tincs, Then about a month ago I got one more Tinc and a Bumblebee (Yellow & Black Banded). I have read many reports and heard people say how bad it is to mix species, but honestly mine have been doing great, I haven't observed any aggressive behavior, the auratus typically stick together and so do the two tincs, the two newer frogs I got last month normally just do their own thing. In my 20 long right now I have plenty of places for them to hide including Pothos (thats largely over grown but the frogs love climbing on it), Coco huts (2x), & Cork bark. But I understand that the tank is going to be too small once they are all adults thats why I've been working on this 38 gallon. I hope to have it ready within the next two months so I can transfer them over. I can't wait! =)
 

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you need to build two tanks and split all those frogs up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I've been reading about why you shouldn't mix the species. Other than aggressive behavior and the threat of cross breeding, why not?

Like i said previously mine have all been eating well and growing. I haven't noticed any aggressive behavior.
 

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i see the need for three tanks the 38 to have the tincs, the 20 can hold the auratus, and a 10 for the leuco's
sorry, meant to say build two MORE tanks.
 

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I've been reading about why you shouldn't mix the species. Other than aggressive behavior and the threat of cross breeding, why not?
If you cross-breed, it's like introducing an ENORMOUS amount of uncertainty into the genetic lines of the hobby. You're dealing with frogs that do not naturally encounter each other in the wild, and while all is good now, just wait until they get older. Err on the side of caution, man - these frogs are expensive, do you really want them potentially killing each other? If so, can you send me $100 per frog you have, since you're so willing to throw money away?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I'm going to leave the 20 gallon set up just in case. But I have no intention to breed my frogs until I'm more familiar with this hobby. I understand I might sound dumb to some more experienced people about mixing them. What are the signs of aggression I should be looking for? & the frogs I have I purchased at reptile shows for around $30 to $45 a piece. I don't plan on killing them, I'm still learning. I haven't had one die yet and its been a year.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Why is it that all the posts I read about mixing the frogs people who said you can't do it seem so rude. I have yet to hear a good reason why you can't. Has anyone on here actually experienced their frogs being aggressive or has anyone had a problem keeping frogs of different species alive? I will find a way to trade in my frogs if I'm having a problem but so far I haven't. I don't want to harm my frogs, I just wish someone would give me good enough reason to take them apart. If they live together in the wild why is it so bad to keep them together in captivity. If I ever get a good answer that makes me understand why it is so bad then I might change my idea about my 38. But until then. My frogs are healthy and happy!:)
 

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They do not all live together in the wild and while you don't plan on breeding them, the frogs may have other plans. Part of being on this hobby is about conservation. Mixing the species is very frowned upon here. It sucks because the zoos do it and teach new comers to the hobby that it is ok. Keeping the morphs separate is hard enough without mixing. And yes people get very angry when you post about mixing. Help yourself out and build another tank. I mean this with all sincerity.
 

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I know this is a little off topic, I just feel the need to put my 2 cents in... While Ive yet to be a dart frog owner, I will be within the next few months and I have no intent to mix breeds I also don't think all of you dart owners really have a real good explanation as to why its not good to mix. Now as I don't know this for a fact I'm pretty sure that the people who work at a zoo that may set up these dart displays you speak of, are most likely WAY more experienced then us who do this as a hobby as aposed to for a living. So A. If they know it is ok to mix I can safely assume that they would be right and B. Where do you guys think all these different color/species of darts came from? Do you think there was one breed who morphed into another and then another and another etc.... It would be safe to assume that a few of the species you guys know of have cross breeded to make another species you guys like. So as I do not wish to start trouble I simply don't like when people are so rude to new comers and then can't even come up with a good explanation as to why not to mix. if you do not wish to mix then don't! Stop demanding that others must do as you, I mean seriously, the best reason you could come up with is we don't want cross breeds in the hobby.... This kid is obviously new to the hobby do you honestly think he is going to/capable of breeding these frogs? When he is more experienced and hears it more and more he will probably stop mixing breeds, every new comer wants to do mixed species tanks when they are just starting. So simmer down and stop bashing! He didnt ask your opinion on how to keep HIS darts he simply asked advice how to create a waterfall. If you don't have advice then don't post! :D
 
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If they know it is ok to mix I can safely assume that they would be right and B. Where do you guys think all these different color/species of darts came from? Do you think there was one breed who morphed into another and then another and another etc.... It would be safe to assume that a few of the species you guys know of have cross breeded to make another species you guys like...Stop demanding that others must do as you, I mean seriously, the best reason you could come up with is we don't want cross breeds in the hobby.... This kid is obviously new to the hobby do you honestly think he is going to/capable of breeding these frogs?
I slimmed down the above quote to really get at what i think are the most important issues

First, I'm pretty sure zookeepers mix juveniles as opposed to adults, and they're in a large enough tank that mixing isn't as much of a problem as having 6 in a 20 gallon.

Second, zookeepers don't sell the offspring of whatever crossbreeding occurs - keepers in the hobby, on the other hand, may, and probably do. I have a right to demand that others keep the hobby that I love, that I invest in, and that I support, in good standing, particularly when I'm going to be dropping some hefty coin. There's a buyer's confidence that I don't want eroded by amateurs.

Third, it's irrelevant that THIS kid isn't capable of breeding at THIS point. The rule shouldn't have exceptions for people who aren't capable of breeding. That's like requiring a license for all gun purchasers, except for the ones that we trust won't kill people. An extreme example, yes, but it gets the point across.

Fourth, if you read anything in the above posts, there's a concern about aggression. That obviously implicates ethical concerns regarding how we keep animals in such a way as to avoid cruel living conditions.

Fifth, I'm not about to support anyone who wants to embark on a mission to artificially create something that may or may not naturally occur in the wild. Such intentional inter-specie manipulation is tantamount to "playing Darwin" or "playing God," whichever view you take. Hands off the evolutionary process.
 

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Ok... I understand your reasoning.

BUT....If you read the above post you would have read this- bmcdarts: But I understand that the tank is going to be too small once they are all adults thats why I've been working on this 38 gallon. So obviously they are juveniles there sunshine.

Second, If you are so concerned about random people breeding and selling mixes than buy from high quality breeders and not some random person on a forum or whatever...its honestly quite simple to do.

Third, when states start requiring licenses for keeping frogs then you can start to think that you have the authority to set rules for other people in the hobby who have spent THEIR own "coin" on THEIR own frogs.

Fourth, If YOU didnt jump into this post like a wild babboon trying to attack a bananna tree, and actually read any of the post. He stated more than once that there is no aggression in his tank, all the frogs are healthy and he plans on moving them to a bigger setup before they are adults....

And Fifth, no one on this post is "embarking" on any missions to play god. So simmer down there Indianna Jones. Have you ever seen a dart that was mixed species for sale? Of course you have right? Let me let you in on a little secret there boy genius....if you see a dart that looks sketchy, DON"T buy it. Its actually a pretty simple concept if you took the time to think before you went jumpoing all over every new comer in the hobby. So until you become the dart police I think you should keep your coin in your pocket and try your best to keep your 2 cents from slipping out of your uneducated mouth.

Thanks and come again dfrmav. :D
 
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Btw, bmcdarts. I DO NOT mean to hijack or ruin your post in anyway shape or form. I just get very frustrated with these know it all dart keepers who think they can bully all the new comers around, although I do highly recomend you seperate those frogs before sexual maturity I would never think I have the right to tell you what you can and can't do with YOUR frogs. As far as the waterfall goes, I agree with the rest of the nice people in the hobby, the best way to figure stuff like this out is by searching. I would just type in sumthing like "waterfall construction" or something similar and you will get quite a few posts that show you step by step how to build your waterfall. Good luck to you and happy herpin. :D
 
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Ok... I understand your reasoning.

BUT....If you read the above post you would have read this- bmcdarts: But I understand that the tank is going to be too small once they are all adults thats why I've been working on this 38 gallon. So obviously they are juveniles there sunshine.

Second, If you are so concerned about random people breeding and selling mixes than buy from high quality breeders and not some random person on a forum or whatever...its honestly quite simple to do.

Third, when states start requiring licenses for keeping frogs then you can start to think that you have the authority to set rules for other people in the hobby who have spent THEIR own "coin" on THEIR own frogs.

Fourth, If YOU didnt jump into this post like a wild babboon trying to attack a bananna tree, and actually read any of the post. He stated more than once that there is no aggression in his tank, all the frogs are healthy and he plans on moving them to a bigger setup before they are adults....

And Fifth, no one on this post is "embarking" on any missions to play god. So simmer down there Indianna Jones. Have you ever seen a dart that was mixed species for sale? Of course you have right? Let me let you in on a little secret there boy genius....if you see a dart that looks sketchy, DON"T buy it. Its actually a pretty simple concept if you took the time to think before you went jumpoing all over every new comer in the hobby. So until you become the dart police I think you should keep your coin in your pocket and try your best to keep your 2 cents from slipping out of your uneducated mouth.

Thanks and come again dfrmav. :D
Okay, first of all, enough with the name-calling. Not only have you shot your credibility to hell, but you've proven that I've aggravated you.

Second, yes, I know he is building a 38 gallon. But that doesn't solve his problem. He has 3 species and two tanks, hence my other post about building a third tank.

Third, you completely missed the point of my licensing analogy. The point was that there shouldn't be exceptions to some rules, especially when the criteria for the exception is just bogus.

Fourth, I don't care that there isn't aggression in his tank, yet. If he doesn't build another tank, there will be. We all know that aggression CAN and DOES happen, so at this point, it's beyond foreseeable - it's a conscious disregard of a fact that is highly likely to occur. It's recklessness, essentially, which is highly unethical even before any aggression happens. And the fact that you're basing your whole argument on what ONE guy said about his frogs is preposterous, considering he doesn't observe them all day long, and we also don't know the stress effects from visibility alone.

Finally, don't assume that just because there's cross breeding, that automatically means it's visible. It may not be, which is exactly why the concern is so high. You can never know 100% without a DNA test and no one's going to pay for that.
 
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