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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This weekend Bill of Quality Exotics (Great guy to buy from) showed me that he now uses and sells the product Hex-A-Mit. He adds 1 250mg tab of Metronidazole to one gallon of water and mists this in his tanks and frogs. Since Dr. Fyre is his vet and the vet of the board, can you please shed some light on this subject to all the froggers who are new to this process. I think it will benifit all the froggers who read this post.
Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems
 

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What is it?

JJuchems said:
This weekend Bill of Quality Exotics (Great guy to buy from) showed me that he now uses and sells the product Hex-A-Mit. He adds 1 250mg tab of Metronidazole to one gallon of water and mists this in his tanks and frogs. Since Dr. Fyre is his vet and the vet of the board, can you please shed some light on this subject to all the froggers who are new to this process. I think it will benifit all the froggers who read this post.
Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems
 

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Clarification...

Jason,

Unless I am mistaken, Hex-a-mit, from Aquatronics, is a medication which is sold in pet stores as fish medication. Metronidazole or flagil is the main ingredient. The last time I spoke with Dr. Frye, he didn't prescribe or recommend 'hex-a-mit' he prescribes metronidazole. A prescription is not needed for 'hex-a-mit'.

Hex-a-mit has been used for years by experienced froggers to treat illness in the way Bill described. The only thing I would ad to his suggestion is to use distilled water when mixing the medication.

In addition, I strongly disagree with the statement below.
Since Dr. Fyre is his vet and the vet of the board, can you please shed some light on this subject to all the froggers who are new to this process. I think it will benifit all the froggers who read this post.
I think your statement is misleading about Dr. Frye's association with dendroboard. Dr. Frye pays to advertise his services on dendroboard and is a contributing member of the board. He is not considered the 'board vet'. Like all members of Dendroboard, Dr. Frye's presence is that of a dart frog hobbyist who is willing to share his experiences with the board. He does bring a unique background to the board, but like all of us, he is a member who is willing to share his experiences & learn from others.

The last time I spoke with Bill, we discussed the use of Metronidazole or Hex-a-mit for medicating frogs. Bill chose to use 'Hex-a-mit" and has been using it for some time. Another friend who uses Hex-a-mit is Michael Novy of Rainforest Junkies, if you contact Mike trough his site he will be happy to discuss this and other medication issues with you.

Melissa
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Metronidozole is the ingredient in this product. This is a fish grade product, which is water-soluble. Metronidozole is a drug used to treat protozoan. When I spoke with Bill he said he did work this out with his vet. Now the reason I ask Dr. Frye to shed some light on this subject is because I believe he is the only member of this board who has the experience and background to say anything on the subject of use of a drug and how it is administered. He has and is the only person to publicly say he is a veterinarian with dart frog experience. This is why I have said he is “the vet of the board.” Sorry for any inconvenience I may have caused by this label. I know of plenty of importers and hobbyist who use tablets such as these to make oral drugs for their herps as well has many froggers who have bought frogs from vendors who are using this process and are now doing so because of these frog vendors. As we all know frogs absorb water and other chemicals through their skin. But there is still the unknown of how much of a drug a frog can absorb through the skin. I have read books on Herpetological Parasites and their treatments and have gone through a personal friend and vet. With froggers buying this product after being told by a breeder that it this is what they use I believe this post would benefit those who are using this process after being told by a vendor that it helps. What are the pros and cons? Can we save a few lives by questioning a process and/or save some froggers from wasteing money on a product that does not work?
Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems
 

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your experiences...

Jason,

I spoke with Bill last night and he clarified some points.

1st - Bill discussed the issue with Dr. Frye and told Dr. Frye of his intentions of using Hex-a-mit.
2nd - Dr. Frye didn't suggest him using Hex-a-mit on his frogs.
3rd - The Hex-a-mit Bill is selling is the same stuff that is available in any pet store.

Have you ever used any other 'fish' medications or heard of any others that are used for frogs? I can't remember the names, but I know there are some antibiotics that can be used.

Another concern, is the effectiveness of the medication affected by mixing it up ahead of time. I know the metronidozole is light sensitive. I have had a bag of it crystalize that I left out. Wouldn't the same be true of the Hex-a-mit?

Can any one else share their experiences with this subject? The more people can share about their experiences, the wiser we all will be.

Thanks,

Melis
 
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Let me start off by saying that I am Bill’s veterinarian, and he is a great guy. He has a huge selection of non-thumbnail frogs available at all times. He has very good prices and has been breeding dart frogs for 12 years. We have been dealing with each other for over a year.

Metronidazole is an excellent drug with many benefits to the frog hobbyist, but in needs to be used correctly.

Metronidazole is a synthetic, nitroimidazole antibacterial and antiprotozoal agent. It’s main benefits to an animal are threefold.

1) It is a great antibiotic for anaerobic bacteria (especially obligate anaerobes including Bacteroides, Fusobaccterium, Veillonella, Clostridium, Peptococcus, and Peptostreptococcus among others.) Actinomyces are frequently resistant to Metronidazole.
2) It also has amebicidal and trichomonacidal action. (It directly kills amoebas and is effective against Entamoeba histolytica, Trichomonas, Giardia, and Balantidium coli and some other protazoa.)
3) It appears to stimulate appetite probably through its anti-inflammatory actions or its inhibition of cell-mediated immunity.

After absorption, Metronidazole is rapidly and widely distributed throughout most of the animal’s tissues and body fluids. It even reaches bone, abscesses, the central nervous system, and reproductive tissues.

It is metabolized (eliminated) mostly by the liver, but the kidneys play a role also.

Metronidazole has been shown to cause birth defects in some laboratory animals if given to a pregnant animal.

Adverse reactions are usually neurologic disorders, and arise after either an acute overdose (giving the animal way too much at one time,) or on animals given the appropriate dose (or even less) for a prolonged time.

Metronidazole is usually given to animals orally, but this is not feasible with dart frogs. Metronidazole is absorbed through the skin, and according to Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry by Wright and Whitaker, on amphibians tested, to achieve the same dose percutaneously as orally one must administer 20% more. Roughly 75% of Metronidazole applied to a dart frog’s back will be absorbed.

I use and recommend Metronidazole for certain sick frogs. I do not recommend Metronidazole to be used on every frog in a collection routinely. I talked to Bill this morning, and explained my position. Bill informed me about a month ago of his plans to use Hex-a-mit in this manner, but I did not recommend it or do any calculations for him.

Here are my concerns with this protocol.

Bill is recommending Hex-a-mit to treat vivaria, not the frogs themselves. His reasoning is that if Metronidazole has such amazing properties and helps frogs fight off infections in vivo (within the frog’s body) it should help to reduce the infectious agents within the vivaria (in vitro.)

There is absolutely no way to quantify the dose a frog will receive if it is exposed to Metronidazole within a misting system. How much mist is pumped into each tank? How high will the concentration of Metronidazole build up as more and more is pumped into the tank? How many drops will each frog come in contact with? More active frogs will bump into more drops before they evaporate. Metronidazole itself will not evaporate so it will leave a potentially harmful and unsightly residue over everything it covers. Each misting system will work differently. Each vivaria will have areas of high and low Metronidazole concentration.

Bill does not use live plants. What effects will Metronidazole have on each and every plant, moss, fungus, insect, egg, etc that we have in our microcosms? There are no studies at all that have delved into this. I must recommend caution.

Also, remember that adverse reactions can be encountered in chronic long term usage.

There is also the possibility of creating antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria with inappropriate usage.

Metronidazole is destroyed by light.

Metronidazole is a wonderful drug. I have many forms of the drug that are easily and conveniently applied to the frogs that need it. I am not telling anyone not to buy Hex-a-mit or even not to use it as Bill plans to. I just want to stress the importance of truly and fully understanding a medication before inventing your own usage protocol. I am a medical professional with a passion for darts. I have more than 200 in my collection. I am constantly researching. I love the hobby, but I am a veterinary medical professional rather than a hobbyist.

Sincerely,
Dr. Frye
 

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Great Information

Dr. Frye,

Thanks for your informative response. That is some really good info regarding flagil's/Metronidazole's long term effects.

I would think the treatment of the entire terrarium with Metronidazole could cause issues. Like you said:
There is also the possibility of creating antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria with inappropriate usage.
If all of the beneficial bacteria and are destroyed with all the bad stuff, doesn't the possibility exist you could create an unbalanced ecosystem.

BTW, all of us are looking forward to your site. Good luck with the design!

Melis
 
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Great to hear about the website. And again thank you Dr Frye for your detailed responses. Where exactly are you in Michigan?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thank you very much on this response Dr. Frye. This is the type of information that I wanted to see out of this post. I’m sorry for any inconvenience I may have caused. I just wanted some clarity since other froggers do business with Bill and my being using this process. I have bought frogs from Bill and he has great frogs with pretty good prices. I do know of other product for pet that are sold over the counter that are being used by different importers for use on reptiles and amphibians such as the product D-Worm which is a wormer for dogs. I have spoken with importers who have mixed this drug with Hex-A-Mit and Repto-Cal to dust on different reptile and amphibians that are newly imported. This is mixed in equal part Repto-Cal and Hex-A-Mit and the small dog mix of D-Worm. I am at school, but will check when I get home on the active ingredient of D-Worm and its mg dose. I also have a list of drug folks have bought in a pet shop for use on herps in general such Penicillin that is marketed by the same company as Hex-A-Mit and Safe Gaurd a horse wormer that is often used on turtles and Tortoises .

Also I want to say that I am endorsing any of the drugs I have just listed. I have just spoken with imports and others who have told me this has worked for them in the past but I would use them with out the involvement of a veterinarian they are trained to prescribe these drugs.

Mitronidozole is light sensitive and is packaged in tubs that protect it from UV.

Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems
 
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"Also I want to say that I am endorsing any of the drugs I have just listed. I have just spoken with imports and others who have told me this has worked for them in the past but I would use them with out the involvement of a veterinarian they are trained to prescribe these drugs. "

Is this a bold statement or do you need to add a few words?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Safe-Guard Horse wormer is a fenbendazole drug (fenbendazole same active drug in Panacur), D-Worm is 2 tabs of 22.7 mg of Pyrantel Pamoate. Another drug I have forgotten about is Tetracycline tablets which is a fish drug form(Tetracycline Hydrochloride) which is used for Red-leg a problem found in many White's Tree Frogs.
No, I do not think this is a bold statement. What I have just listed are way that these drugs are used other than their intended use. These drugs are not intended for amphibians or reptiles but for the use on dogs, horses, and fish.

Later and Happy frogging,
Jason Juchems
 
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Melisa, I didn't give information on Flagyl's long-term effects, "That is some really good info regarding flagil's/Metronidazole's long term effects. " I gave information on the effects of using metronidazole chronically or long term. Those are two different things.
 

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?

David,

I am not sure that I understand your clarification. I guess it could be taken 2 ways.

1. flagil's & Metronidazole are entirely different
2. I didn't clarify long-term effects to be continual, long term usage.

I think you are referring to the 2nd, but I wanted to ask to make sure and thank you for clarifying my point. I think the information was enlightening.

Thanks,

Melis
 
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Flagyl (with a y) is a brand name of metronidazole.

Long term effects of a drug refer to effects (usually adverse) that happen down the road after therapy. Metronidazole doesn't have any known long term effects.

I was talking about the effects of chronically using metronidazole (using metronidazole for a innapropriately prolonged period.)

I realized the confusion, that is why I clarified. Your statement could inapropriately influence someone into thinking that metronidazole has long term effects.
 
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