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Except then you have to catch the babies in the tank after they morph out.... Lol....
Arguably easier than finding eggs -- my imis lay in hidden spots that I very rarely find (not that I work hard to look). Imitators often sit up in the front of the viv and stare down their keeper, so it isn't very challenging to catch them. :)
 

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Unless a person wants to maximize froglet numbers beyond their natural output of offspring, letting the parents raise the tads is the way to go with imitator and the other eggfeeders.
I think this is exactly what get's people confused imo.

The description and difference between the behavior and morph or species of frogs should be made a lot more clear.

The difference between the facultative eggfeeders and the larger Ranitomeya group seem to be very unknown to the majority of people. Most beginners seem to think all poisonfrogs are egg feeders.

Btw, since imitators are facultative egg feeders, this does not mean they will always raise tads themselves unlike the real eggfeeders (oophaga)
 

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I think this is exactly what get's people confused imo.

The description and difference between the behavior and morph or species of frogs should be made a lot more clear.

The difference between the facultative eggfeeders and the larger Ranitomeya group seem to be very unknown to the majority of people. Most beginners seem to think all poisonfrogs are egg feeders.

Btw, since imitators are facultative egg feeders, this does not mean they will always raise tads themselves unlike the real eggfeeders (oophaga)
Correct. Only the vanzolinii group (R. imitator, R. vanzolinii, R. sirensis, and R. flavovittata) are facultative eggfeeders, i.e. do regularly provide nutritive eggs for their own tads even though the tads can eat other foods.

It would be quite unusual that any of those species would fail to provide eggs though, yes?
 

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Thanks. I assume Varaderos are not found in puddles or streams in situ? Not sure where to look that up.

I gather best practice even with Ranitomeya is to place film canisters and pull the eggs as soon as I see them? Then keep them in a petri dish until they are tapoles, at which point I should keep them in separate cups? I tried to do research on here, but it seems like different people take different approaches.
Correct. Only the vanzolinii group (R. imitator, R. vanzolinii, R. sirensis, and R. flavovittata) are facultative eggfeeders, i.e. do regularly provide nutritive eggs for their own tads even though the tads can eat other foods.

It would be quite unusual that any of those species would fail to provide eggs though, yes?
From what i've been told by some experienced Ranitomeya keepers/breeders is that some of their facultative egg feeders deposit tads but choose to never feed eggs to their tadpoles.

My guess is the females would have to put to much energy in to it and therefore choose not to in some cases..

Conditions and their health have to be perfect for them to do so I guess.
tbh
Providing (longterm) perfect conditions and maintaining healthy frogs is what always seems to be the most difficult in this hobby.



But I just wanted to point out in my above comment Ranitomeya do not display all the same behavior or parental care and there is a lot of difference between all frogs even morphs 😄
 

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From what i've been told by some experienced Ranitomeya keepers/breeders is that some of their facultative egg feeders deposit tads but choose to never feed eggs to their tadpoles.

My guess is the females would have to put to much energy in to it and therefore choose not to in some cases..
I'd be interested in hearing more about these cases. Not that I doubt the reports, but it would be valuable to learn what's going on here. Your implication that failing to eggfeed is an artifact of captivity makes sense. That's similar to one reason why I think it best to allow the parents to eggfeed -- we could easily breed out that parental behavior (it has happened in other species of captive animals), which would be a huge loss. Perhaps this -- perhaps in combination with the "conditions and health" issues -- is already going on for the people you've heard this from.

Another reasonable concern would be that if the female doesn't have the energy to raise froglets, pushing her to lay more fertilized eggs by pulling earlier clutches would be worse, since leaving the tads unfed in the viv would at least get the male distracted from courting her (he'd be off making the rounds of the tads) to lay more clutches.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Unless a person wants to maximize froglet numbers beyond their natural output of offspring, letting the parents raise the tads is the way to go with imitator and the other eggfeeders.
So I just put some film canisters and a bunch of bromeliads in and that's it? They take it from there?
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Also, I will have a breeding pair in an Amazonia In Situ tank. Personally, I don't mind leaving some froglets to grow up with the parents. But at what point would that be a problem? How many froglets can share the viv with their parents? Or better to offload all of the froglets?
 

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I'd be interested in hearing more about these cases. Not that I doubt the reports, but it would be valuable to learn what's going on here. Your implication that failing to eggfeed is an artifact of captivity makes sense. That's similar to one reason why I think it best to allow the parents to eggfeed -- we could easily breed out that parental behavior (it has happened in other species of captive animals), which would be a huge loss. Perhaps this -- perhaps in combination with the "conditions and health" issues -- is already going on for the people you've heard this from.
That's an interesting way of thinking. I agree it could be possible to outbreed such behavior. This ofc would be a tremendous loss.

However I'm not sure about the idea of letting them always raise the tadpoles (in captivity) is the best idea since this always requires a lot of energy for the frogs. Especialy since 'facultative eggfeeding' means they are not obligated to by any means. It simply means it's possible for the frogs to feed tads when the environment or deposition sites are not perfectly suited for the tadpoles tonthrive in. Yet this is not always the case.

This however is something we do create by handraising frogs and making sure to produce healthy feoglets. So both the offspring as the parents benefit from our handraising practice imo.

Just my two cents on this topic :)
 

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@Tijl : though I never raised thumbs artificially, they are said to morph out larger/stronger if the parents raise them. This is probably even more likely to happen for a less-than-expert keeper who may not quite have tad-raising down to a science. Plus, I think that the egg-feeding behavior is the most interesting facet of keeping those species, and I think it would be foolish to miss out on it. YMMV on that, I guess. :)

The facultative part means that the tads can in fact survive on other foods. In the wild, though, the deposition sites are so small that enough food is less likely to fall in there vs. species that deposit in larger bodies of water (I've read that this is the accepted reason for why those species evolved the capacity to egg-feed: so that thery can exploit tiny deposition sites). So in the wild at least, they are kind of obligated to egg feed. Probably you're familiar with this; I'm mentioning it for the benefit of the larger audience mostly, so no condescension intended, of course.

So I just put some film canisters and a bunch of bromeliads in and that's it? They take it from there?
For the species in the vanzolinii group, yes that's it.

Also, I will have a breeding pair in an Amazonia In Situ tank. Personally, I don't mind leaving some froglets to grow up with the parents. But at what point would that be a problem? How many froglets can share the viv with their parents? Or better to offload all of the froglets?
Personally, I like to pull the froglets just before the point at which I can't distinguish the parents from the froglets by size. If you wait longer then that, then the froglets will start breeding and that complicates things, since there will be tads in the viv that will become unattended and, unless you know exactly where they are (beyond my powers of observation, for sure) and pull them or feed them, they will likely starve.
 
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Also, I will have a breeding pair in an Amazonia In Situ tank. Personally, I don't mind leaving some froglets to grow up with the parents. But at what point would that be a problem? How many froglets can share the viv with their parents? Or better to offload all of the froglets?
Your always best pul
@Tijl : though I never raised thumbs artificially, they are said to morph out larger/stronger if the parents raise them. This is probably even more likely to happen for a less-than-expert keeper who may not quite have tad-raising down to a science. Plus, I think that the egg-feeding behavior is the most interesting facet of keeping those species, and I think it would be foolish to miss out on it. YMMV on that, I guess. :)

The facultative part means that the tads can in fact survive on other foods. In the wild, though, the deposition sites are so small that enough food is less likely to fall in there vs. species that deposit in larger bodies of water (I've read that this is the accepted reason for why those species evolved the capacity to egg-feed: so that thery can exploit tiny deposition sites). So in the wild at least, they are kind of obligated to egg feed. Probably you're familiar with this; I'm mentioning it for the benefit of the larger audience mostly, so no condescension intended, of course.



For the species in the vanzolinii group, yes that's it.



Personally, I like to pull the froglets just before the point at which I can't distinguish the parents from the froglets by size. If you wait longer then that, then the froglets will start breeding and that complicates things, since there will be tads in the viv that will become unattended and, unless you know exactly where they are (beyond my powers of observation, for sure) and pull them or feed them, they will likely starve.
I like conversations and topics like this😄 very insightfull and I think easy to underdstand for all that read along
 

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I am currently running a little "experiment" of raising my tinc tadpoles communally with good results. I have them in a 4 gallon tote with a sponge filter, plenty of Indian almond leaves, and lots of java moss and fern. The tads are enormous compared to those raised in cups. The only word of caution is that you really need to monitor the food. I have been feeding Repashy soilent green, fish food, and ocasionally bacter ae. I was house sitting for a time and lost several tads that looked like they got fungal infections. My guess is that once food was scarce they started nipping at each other and that led to the infections. I have not had a problem since.
 

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Except then you have to catch the babies in the tank after they morph out.... Lol....
Has anyone tried building a trap out of e.g. a film canister or fly container? Put some springtails in there (for some reason I've found many darts prefer those for snacks over FFs), add some yeast to keep them there and wait. Attach the lid to a string (or just cut out a small part of the lid) and you may be able to catch them without much effort.
 

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@Tijl

The facultative part means that the tads can in fact survive on other foods. In the wild, though, the deposition sites are so small that enough food is less likely to fall in there vs. species that deposit in larger bodies of water (I've read that this is the accepted reason for why those species evolved the capacity to egg-feed: so that thery can exploit tiny deposition sites). So in the wild at least, they are kind of obligated to egg feed. Probably you're familiar with this; I'm mentioning it for the benefit of the larger audience mostly, so no condescension intended, of course.
This is the meat of it - it isn't that the vanzolinii group might sometimes feed - they always do by nature, it is that the tadpoles can survive without the eggs - and you can most certainly pull them as tadpoles and raise them with no issue, unlike obligate egg feeders.
 

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As for pulling froglets, it really is quite easy when they start morphing out. They are quite docile at first, and take a while to explore outside of their immediate morph location. Once they get a bit bigger, they can be a hassle!

I usually wait about 2 weeks, so they get eating and start exploring a little bit. I've found they do better like this, and usually start eating melos in the tank before moving to a growout.
 

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This is the meat of it - it isn't that the vanzolinii group might sometimes feed - they always do by nature, it is that the tadpoles can survive without the eggs - and you can most certainly pull them as tadpoles and raise them with no issue, unlike obligate egg feeders.
I'm not sure you are 100% correct on the quote 'they always do by nature'.

I was informed that some of the facultative eggfeeders tend to be considered more of a 'nest invader'.

Meaning they drop of their tadpoles in pools where other other tadpole(s) already have been deposited by other frogs. After this the tadpole of the feeds on the other tadpole(s) or steals the eggs provided by the parents of the first deposited tadpole(s). The 'nest invading' parents can also deposit eggs to feed their tapole. But this will not always be the case.


I could be mixing up some information and could be easely mistaken on this ofc. I personaly only have experience with R. Benedicta when it comes to members of the Ranitomeya family, which are not eggfeeders.
 

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I'm not sure you are 100% correct on the quote 'they always do by nature'.

I was informed that some of the facultative eggfeeders tend to be considered more of a 'nest invader'.

Meaning they drop of their tadpoles in pools where other other tadpole(s) already have been deposited by other frogs. After this the tadpole of the feeds on the other tadpole(s) or steals the eggs provided by the parents of the first deposited tadpole(s). The 'nest invading' parents can also deposit eggs to feed their tapole. But this will not always be the case.


I could be mixing up some information and could be easely mistaken on this ofc. I personaly only have experience with R. Benedicta when it comes to members of the Ranitomeya family, which are not eggfeeders.
From everything I have read, and everything I have experienced, the vanzolinii group of Ranitomeya will always feed their tadpoles. The exception to this is R. sirensis - where they have been documented to both egg-feed in captivity, but recent research literature claims they do not in the wild. I suspect that is likely one or the other. R. flavovittata are unconfirmed in the wild to be facultative egg feeders, but pretty well confirmed in captivity.

I don't know of any specific documentation of about tadpoles being deposited purposefully to be predacious (Ranitomeya anyway), but would certainly be interested in reading any papers you have come across regarding that. I would suspect if this was true, it would likely not be a facultative egg feeder, but more likely something from the variabilis or reticulata groups.
 

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Tactical reproductive parasitism via larval cannibalism in Peruvian poison frogs

"We report an unusual example of reproductive parasitism in amphibians. Dendrobates variabilis, an Amazonian poison frog, oviposits at the surface of the water in small pools in plants and deposits tadpoles within the pools. Tadpoles are highly cannibalistic and consume young tadpoles if they are accessible. Deposition of embryos and tadpoles in the same pool is common. Genetic analyses indicate that tadpoles are frequently unrelated to embryos in the same pool."

www.sdmtoolbox.org/data/PDFs/013_Brown_etal_2009_tacticle%20parasitism_Bio_Letters.pdf
 
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I raised auratus in a 10 gallon with other fish. It was great and they got huge fast.
 
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I'm researching breeding dart frogs and I happen to have an extra cycled 3 gallon aquarium with only a snail in it. Is there any reason I couldn't raise tadpoles in this aquarium? Any tips from anyone who has tried it?

View attachment 299024
I do it routinely but generally start the tads in "guppy tanks" floating in the tank so as to monitor the feed.I currently use a 20 long filled 1/2 with RO water with added almond leaves and pothos clippings. Pothos serve also to serve as "islands" to catch the occasional tad that morphs before enter dry land. Shrimp and snails do the cleanup but I do have 2 sponge filters in addition.
 
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