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Discussion Starter #1
So there is this group on Facebook with over 11,000 members and they are telling people it's ok to go out and harvest plants and mosses form the wild. I told one person this was a bad idea and they referred me to their myths document. The only pat of that that covers harvesting things from the wild is this:

"1)Using natural materials risks introducing snake mites.
No. Using materials, vivaria or introducing snakes that have not been properly quarantined from dealers or keepers whose premises are infested risks introducing snake mites. Although there are many species of mite native to the UK and other temperate climates, none of them are parasitic on snakes and other reptiles. The dreaded snake mite itself (Ophionussus natricis) is thought to have been introduced to collections from Africa, possibly along with royal (ball) pythons, and cannot survive outside in our climate. There is practically zero chance of introducing them through natural material collected in the countryside.
"

Well that's pretty vague is it not? Only covering snakes and mites when there is loads of other animals and organisms.

This isn't about mites. It's about bringing in other harmful things like Nemerteans, scale bugs, snails, all kinds of creatures can come with harvesting outside things. They destroy the plants in the vivariums. Though you can also get spider mites.

So this myth document on covers mites it's not covering all the other harmful organisms that can come with harvesting moss and plants form the wild. Anyways the mosses need a dormancy period which most mosses get during winter periods. which they won't get in vivariums.

So Yeah I just wanna pick your brains on this and they are a "Bioactive" vivarium group yet they seem to think cocofiber and fake plants are bioactive. They truly don't understand the complexity of what a bioactive vivarium really is. Though it's not all that complex they just seem to to fully grasp what it means.

Would you tell someone it's ok to be going out and harvesting mosses and plants fron the wild with no treatment to the plants or mosses or even wood?
 

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I think people get tripped up on the consistency of introduced problems, there seems to be a lot of anecdotal evidence used, the "I did it and nothing happened" kind of thing

youre not 100% sure to get nasties in your tank if you use stuff collected from the wild, but given how easy it is to do a bleach dip or bake the wood for a while, I dont see why you wouldnt take the extra step
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I think people get tripped up on the consistency of introduced problems, there seems to be a lot of anecdotal evidence used, the "I did it and nothing happened" kind of thing

youre not 100% sure to get nasties in your tank if you use stuff collected from the wild, but given how easy it is to do a bleach dip or bake the wood for a while, I dont see why you wouldnt take the extra step
Yeah but even still you can wind up with bugs and other nasties as you call it. Bleach still doesn't get rid of everything nor does boiling and baking. So even with taking extra steps you aren't guaranteed not to get pests. Like Doug aka Pumilo and others have discussed an autoclave is the only way to really take care of unwanted organisms. Those suckers are expensive :rolleyes:
That page is just full of so much misinformation and they are putting people vivariums and animals at risk :/
Somehow I wound up with silver springtails in my big vetical vivarium and I didn't put them there lol Though I couldn't exactly boil and bake a piece of cyprus that is this big xD

Lukily it's just silver springs and not something really bad.
My 10 gallon viv wound up with snails somehow and somehow they all vanished, luckily.
I just wouldn't jeopardize my viv when I can just order some nice mosses and plants that will do well in my vivariums.
They are also telling people that they can go out and collect wild springtails and isopods for their vivs in their own back yards or closest wooded area :eek:
 

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I think grow out tanks really help. So many institutions do this in a sense - for example, many laboratories that produce strains of mice for research entirely rederive strains they acquire from elsewhere. It significantly reduces any biosecurity threat to their own population.

The same can be said for most plants (I guess you can't really rederive a piece of wood lol), where step one is to treat, then place in a grow out plant only tank. Take a culture from there, treat, and grow it out again. And repeat as many times as you want.

Unfortunately most people aren't willing to put in the time to do that. :/

The whole "bioactive" push in the hobby lately gives me a headache. Most don't seem to really have any concept of what bioactivity (in science) even means.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I think grow out tanks really help. So many institutions do this in a sense - for example, many laboratories that produce strains of mice for research entirely rederive strains they acquire from elsewhere. It significantly reduces any biosecurity threat to their own population.

The same can be said for most plants (I guess you can't really rederive a piece of wood lol), where step one is to treat, then place in a grow out plant only tank. Take a culture from there, treat, and grow it out again. And repeat as many times as you want.

Unfortunately most people aren't willing to put in the time to do that. :/

The whole "bioactive" push in the hobby lately gives me a headache. Most don't seem to really have any concept of what bioactivity (in science) even means.
Yeah there is definitely a process but the group leaders aren't even teaching people how to go about it the right way they are saying it's ok to but the items straight into the vivarium.
I agree people just don't know what bioactivity even really means.
I really wish these groups weren't even allowed to operate and spread such misinformation.
 

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"Harvesting"?

No plants out of the wild should be harvested. Period. That implies collecting way more than you'd need for yourself. Leave the material where you found it.

Collecting a small amount for yourself - and placing it in a grow out area for an extended period? Safer. A tad more sustainable as well.

I've read about mountainsides that have, literally, had their moss rolled up and "harvested". That disgusts me.

s
 

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Discussion Starter #7
"Harvesting"?

No plants out of the wild should be harvested. Period. That implies collecting way more than you'd need for yourself. Leave the material where you found it.

Collecting a small amount for yourself - and placing it in a grow out area for an extended period? Safer. A tad more sustainable as well.

I've read about mountainsides that have, literally, had their moss rolled up and "harvested". That disgusts me.

s
Harvesting or just getting plants from the wild. You can harvest all or just some. Just because you're harvesting doesn't mean you're taking it all. Though I get your point to an extent that it could imply taking more than you need. Though when people collect moss they could find a little patch of moss and by taking that entire little patch of moss that would indeed be harvesting.
:p
Though let's not nitpick on word usage now lol and focus on the matter that this thread is truly discussing :)
Maybe I should have said collecting instead. So if you would like to change the title and replace 'Harvesting' and put 'Collecting' there that would be cool :)
 

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Discussion Starter #11

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btw if anyone would like to inform them they are misinforming people, feel free. The group's name is Reptile and Amphibian Bioactive Setups.
They removed me from the group when I started dropping knowledge on them.
I didn't break a single rule. I guess they didn't like being challenged. Which wasn't even my intent to begin with. I was just letting the person know wild moss and plants aren't a good idea.
 

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Yeah but even still you can wind up with bugs and other nasties as you call it. Bleach still doesn't get rid of everything nor does boiling and baking. So even with taking extra steps you aren't guaranteed not to get pests. Like Doug aka Pumilo and others have discussed an autoclave is the only way to really take care of unwanted organisms. Those suckers are expensive :rolleyes:
That page is just full of so much misinformation and they are putting people vivariums and animals at risk :/
Somehow I wound up with silver springtails in my big vetical vivarium and I didn't put them there lol Though I couldn't exactly boil and bake a piece of cyprus that is this big xD

Lukily it's just silver springs and not something really bad.
My 10 gallon viv wound up with snails somehow and somehow they all vanished, luckily.
I just wouldn't jeopardize my viv when I can just order some nice mosses and plants that will do well in my vivariums.
They are also telling people that they can go out and collect wild springtails and isopods for their vivs in their own back yards or closest wooded area :eek:
There are microorganisms that can survive being dunked in bleach?! What types of microorganisms can survive that harsh of a substance?
 

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There are microorganisms that can survive being dunked in bleach?! What types of microorganisms can survive that harsh of a substance?
Lots but of even more importance is that the structure of the plants themselves prevent exposure to sufficient bleach to actually do anything. For more of a discussion see http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150819083127.htm

As has been noted before and I'm sure will be again, bleaching plants doesn't really do anything to prevent the addition of unwanted organisms into the enclosures.

Some comments

Ed
 

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Discussion Starter #16
There are microorganisms that can survive being dunked in bleach?! What types of microorganisms can survive that harsh of a substance?
Yeah what Ed said plus it's diluted so it's not as potent.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy SIII using tapatalk
 

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OK, the structure of the plants makes a lot more sense now, added with the dilution.
 

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Two quick points:

Items collected from the "wild" also have the potential to carry pollutants and environmental toxins depending on where they are collected.

Unless you live in a tropical zone most live plants and moss collected will not do well in vivs either.
 

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Unless you live in a tropical zone most live plants and moss collected will not do well in vivs either.
Fwiw, I am batting 100 on collected temperate mosses and worts in my orch box. This will be their 2nd winter without dormancy, and they are still growing/spreading.
 

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I think that it depends on what sort of animals you are keeping.

With dart frogs-chytrid is the main concern. The ability of amphibian parasites to infect distantly related species varies greatly(cane toads in OZ were found to keep most of their own parasite flora, for example).

Considering that chytrid is widespread but known snake pathogens or vectors such as snake mites are not-frog folk need to be a little more concerned about sources of terrarium materials than most other hobbies.
 
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