[pa.walt]

i have a 2 free froglets, i think dwarf tincs that when i got (wed.)that were not in the best of health. first off both were skinny, have been giving electrolyte bath. tonight i noticed one that it the "flying frog" motion (i'm sure you know what i mean by that) when i touched it. from what i remember this is a vitamin problem or am i wrong.
the forglets came from a tank that a friend was redoing and they were there and he sort of said if they die no big deal that is why i took them home to see if i can bring them back to health.
walt

 

[Dunner97074]

2 questions;
1. are they eating at all?
2. Do you or did your friend add supplements to their diet?

 

[pa.walt]

more about the froglets..

they are about a half inch in lenght, so they are very young. i have given them flys and pinhead crickets. as far as supliments i don't think so. right before i wrote this i gave the one another "electrlyte bath." when i picked them out of the tank this afternoon they where motionless.
i'm figuring that it might be a waste because they where real skinny but so far they are both alive. skinny but alive.
walt

 

[bbrock]

Seizures are often caused by calcium deficiency which is often treatable in otherwise healthy frogs by soaking them daily in diluted Ca gluconate. I can't remember the concentration so hopefully someone with Amphibian Medicine and Husbandry handy can look it up. I believe the strength is 1/10 what it comes out of the bottle for dosing cattle but my book is in storage so that needs to be verified. It's cheap too. You just need to call a vet and get some. I'm not saying that's what's causing this frog to seizure but it is a fairly common cause, especially if they weren't being well fed. Like I said, treatable in otherwise healthy frogs but if yours are in an emaciated condition... who knows? It's worth a shot.

Oh yeah, before I knew about the Ca gluconate, I once treated a frog that was seizuring by mixing some calcium powder in electrolyte solution. The frog recovere either because of, or despite the treatment, but she is still with years later.

Good luck!

 

[Dunner97074]

bbrock is going down the right road here. My first thought was Ca+ deficiency from not supplementing their diet. The electrolyte bath is ok but they will not absorb any calcium this way. I have heard of the neocalgluconate bath but I'm not too familiar with it. If the frogs are eating dust the food with a supplement. And look into the CaGluconate bath.

On a physiological note: calcium is required for muscle contraction as well as bone deposition. Typically in a Ca+ deficient diet the bones are broken down as are bulk muscle to save as much Ca+ in the body. When the amount is compromised it has to come from somewhere to maintain the balance. The electrolyte bath is simply a broad mixure of cations and anions which may or may not be balanced for the problem.

 

[pa.walt]

thanks

after i read the replys it sort of joged my memory. i remember i read about this in frognet.
again thanks for the info.
i will try the calicum/electrolyte mix.
walt

 

[Arklier]

Calcium is also required for nerve impulse transmission. It's part of the process where the impluse jumps from one nerve cell to another (or to muscle cells) across the synapse. That is why vertibrates with severe calcium deficencies have seizures and twitching in addition to bone degeneration. People often think of bones as a support structure, but in reality they have many functions, one of which is providing a suppository for calcium. When calcium is not provided through the diet, then it is pulled out of the bones in order to fill the more critical need of running the nervous system. Once seizures appear, it means that the animal's supply of calcium is almost totally exhausted.

 

[Dunner97074]

Sorry it's long

Arklier,
Actually calcium is the stimulating factor of the presynapse and within the cell but not not in the synapse. In the synapse it is sodium. There are voltage sensitive calcium channels in the neuromuscular junction. When these channels are stimulated they release ACH (acetylcholine) in to the synapse. the binding of ACH on the motor end plate initiates an action potential. This signal activates the voltage gated Ca+ channels in the terminal cisterna which then releases the Ca+ to bind to the troponin allowing the myosin head to bind to the actin causing muscle contraction. When the nerve signal is lost the Ca+ return to the cisterna.

Sorry for the detailed explanation but....it's what I do.

Hypocalcemia is likely the cause which is why I mentioned the supplements earlier. However it may not be "just" a calcium deficiency. Vt. D is also required to synthesize Ca. Most Vt. D is dietary as Vt. D2 an synthesized by UV light to D3 (the actual form the body utilizes to absorb Ca.

So treatment would be hydrate, supplement, and provide full spectrum light (although not as necessary in vivariums partially b/c some supplements include D3)

Good luck,
Mike

 

[Arklier]

Well, I didn't want to get too technical.

 

[Ed]

From what I remember Vitamin D, D2 and D3 are isomers with D and D2 not being used by anurans. Provitamin D is converted on exposure to UVB to D3.

Anurans can absorb other ions (such as sodium) across the skin membranes as adults and the skin in some amphibians is porus to calcium if the amphibian is kept in calcium deficient water so I do not see why the frog would be unable to absorb calcium when soaked in it.

Hypocalcemia is a good presumptive diagnosis given that there was a lack of supplementation. If supplementation occured then there could have been other interferences with calcium metabolism that may have made correcting the problem more difficult.

Ed

 

[bbrock]

Anurans can absorb other ions (such as sodium) across the skin membranes as adults and the skin in some amphibians is porus to calcium if the amphibian is kept in calcium deficient water so I do not see why the frog would be unable to absorb calcium when soaked in it.

I agree. Amphibian Medicine and Husbandry details baths of Calcium gluconate as a treatment for hypocalcemia. I personally have used this treatment on two different animals and both recovered nicely following treatment. The problem with recommendations "to supplement with calcium" is that by the time an animal is seizuring, it may not have enough motor control to feed well enough to consume the supplement. The Ca gluconate bath can be a life saver and it is cheap and easy to administer.