Dendroboard banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 10 of 10 Posts
G

·
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In a way, this is very similar to Josh Kaptur's situation, except the frog is a new river tinctorius, about 16 months old. He was recovering from a hookworm infestation. Everything had been well with him until about 2 months ago, I noted some weight loss which persisted despite a diet heavy with termites, crickets, and fruitflies. I tried feeding several times a day and the frog ate voraciously, but continued to lose weight. A fecal determined that the frog was heavily parasitized with hookworm. It was treated with panacur for 4 weeks and Ivermectin for 3 weeks (courtesy of Dr. Frye). This cured the parasites, and I moved the frog to a simpler tupperware container. I was able to notice definite improvement in disposition and a definite weight gain within a few weeks. Yesterday, I was feeding the frog fruitflies (and he was eating them) when all of a sudden he became uncoordinated and had difficulty supporting himself. He then proceeded to have a seizure for about a minute. When he came to, he puffed himself up to a huge size, which I suppose may have been swallowing air. Since then he's been listless and really shy, always hiding under a leaf, picking up a few (if any) fruitflies here and there. He normally is a very bold frog, always out in the open, and always eating. I have a bad feeling about the situation. The last fecal (done about 5 days ago) was negative for anything.

So my question is...does anyone have experience with frogs that had sudden seizures with this presentation?

Here are a few ideas I have as to the cause. In order of decreasing probability.

1) Cerebral Inflammation caused by parasites in the brain that were killed by the ivermectin leading to seizure.

2) Calcium deficiency? - I supplement about 1-2 times per week. The last time I supplemented was about 2 days ago.

3) Liver damage - possibly secondary to overfeeding? He got lots of termites and food while I was trying to fatten him up.

4) side effects of Ivermectin/Panacur (unlikely I think)

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks so much. Sick frogs are such a horrible thing. You feel so helpless.

Ken
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,229 Posts
Only thing I will offer is this, and it is not from my own experience. I have heard that panacur can have a number of bad effects on frogs, not to say that this is, or is not caused by it, but there have been a number of debates on the topic.

Have you asked Dr. Frye? If so what was his response?

I would also dust the food more often than 1-2 times a week. I do every other day with all of mine.

KHobalt said:
In a way, this is very similar to Josh Kaptur's situation, except the frog is a new river tinctorius, about 16 months old. He was recovering from a hookworm infestation. Everything had been well with him until about 2 months ago, I noted some weight loss which persisted despite a diet heavy with termites, crickets, and fruitflies. I tried feeding several times a day and the frog ate voraciously, but continued to lose weight. A fecal determined that the frog was heavily parasitized with hookworm. It was treated with panacur for 4 weeks and Ivermectin for 3 weeks (courtesy of Dr. Frye). This cured the parasites, and I moved the frog to a simpler tupperware container. I was able to notice definite improvement in disposition and a definite weight gain within a few weeks. Yesterday, I was feeding the frog fruitflies (and he was eating them) when all of a sudden he became uncoordinated and had difficulty supporting himself. He then proceeded to have a seizure for about a minute. When he came to, he puffed himself up to a huge size, which I suppose may have been swallowing air. Since then he's been listless and really shy, always hiding under a leaf, picking up a few (if any) fruitflies here and there. He normally is a very bold frog, always out in the open, and always eating. I have a bad feeling about the situation. The last fecal (done about 5 days ago) was negative for anything.

So my question is...does anyone have experience with frogs that had sudden seizures with this presentation?

Here are a few ideas I have as to the cause. In order of decreasing probability.

1) Cerebral Inflammation caused by parasites in the brain that were killed by the ivermectin leading to seizure.

2) Calcium deficiency? - I supplement about 1-2 times per week. The last time I supplemented was about 2 days ago.

3) Liver damage - possibly secondary to overfeeding? He got lots of termites and food while I was trying to fatten him up.

4) side effects of Ivermectin/Panacur (unlikely I think)

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks so much. Sick frogs are such a horrible thing. You feel so helpless.

Ken
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
291 Posts
Ken,

Calcium deficiency can cause seizures. If a seizure is bad enough in humans and other animals it could cause brain damage (which could cause a change in behavior). I would think that the same would apply to our frogs. What supplement do you use (types and ratios)? I'd agree with Kyle that I would increase the frequency of supplementation, however the type of supplements that you use are just as important as the frequency that they are used.

Additionally it is very possible that the parasites killed off are causing the little one problems. I believe Dr. Frye generally sends antibiotics with the dewormers and you may want to contact him in regards to the use of those antibiotics.

I have been reluctant to post the following information for a few reasons. Number one I haven't had time to do my own research to confirm or deny it. I prefer to have information from multiple sources before making a decision on what I feel the truth is. I hope that someone here can answer some of my questions and maybe help someone else along the way. Plus I think the information is important to this thread.

I was speaking to a vet recently and he mentioned a few side effects of Panacur and antibiotics that alarmed me. The vet I spoke to said that Panacur has been shown to cause "bone marrow suppression in reptiles and amphibians." He also stated that antibiotics cause "permanent liver damage in amphibians." Additionally you run the risk of medication resistant strands of the parasites, etc. He also added that there is a time and place to use the medications and if you have to use the medications you should use them "judiciously".

He sited research from a particular person but I am awful with names and have forgotten it (another reason I need to call him). However, the research he quoted was done on reptiles and amphibians (not cats and dogs etc.).

If the above is true then using the Panacur so often in such a short time span could possibly have caused some problems in your New River. Some questions I would like to have answered though, is, whether or not the bone marrow suppression is permanent. I'd also like to know if it's not permanent how long it takes the frogs to recover from treatment and how much is too much?
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
update

I have heard mixed reviews about Panacur as well. By some accounts, people use it prophylactically without ill effect. But bone marrow suppression is not a good thing and I imagine it would lead to an increased susceptibility to infections. This frog received 4 weeks of panacur (weekly, so only four treatments) and 3 weeks of Ivermectin. So he has completed the full course, and I'm no longer giving any more meds. In this case, I believe that the antiparasitics were very much needed as the frog was rapidly losing weight and the fecal revealed an extensive worm load. Given the heavy parasite load, perhaps the brain had been parasitized, and in that case, I don't think there's much we can do about the seizures. The frog did respond remarkably well to the anti-parasitics and actually LOOKS much better.

I upped the calcium supplementation to every other day. I used Rep-Cal and Herptivite. Do you think it may be good to supplement everyday? I hear that can be hard on the liver and this particular frog has a sensitive liver.

Today is the third day since he's had the seizure and it actually looks like he is starting to return to normal. He ate a small dish of termites and several calcium dusted flies. He is still somewhat reclusive (for this particular tink), he no longer ducks to the floor everytime I open the cover to his container. I was certain he was a goner but now I'm more cautiously optimistic.

Thanks so much for your posts guys. It's a great learning experience.

Ken
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
291 Posts
Re: update

KHobalt said:
I have heard mixed reviews about Panacur as well. By some accounts, people use it prophylactically without ill effect. But bone marrow suppression is not a good thing and I imagine it would lead to an increased susceptibility to infections. This frog received 4 weeks of panacur (weekly, so only four treatments) and 3 weeks of Ivermectin. So he has completed the full course, and I'm no longer giving any more meds. In this case, I believe that the antiparasitics were very much needed as the frog was rapidly losing weight and the fecal revealed an extensive worm load. Given the heavy parasite load, perhaps the brain had been parasitized, and in that case, I don't think there's much we can do about the seizures. The frog did respond remarkably well to the anti-parasitics and actually LOOKS much better.
I've heard both sides about Panacur too and am not sure which to believe, although, I tend to think that any chemical introduced into an organism would have some repercussions (whether they be serious or not). Please don't think I was chastising you for treating the frog. I do believe that there is a need for medications (such as in your case) and when used properly they can work miracles!

KHobalt said:
I upped the calcium supplementation to every other day. I used Rep-Cal and Herptivite. Do you think it may be good to supplement everyday? I hear that can be hard on the liver and this particular frog has a sensitive liver.
We use supplements everyday will no apparent ill side effects. However, I have heard a lot of people only supplementing every other day with no problems as well. I really do not think that there is a 100% sure answer to that question.

I’ve never heard anyone say that a frog had a sensitive liver (though I’m sure it’s entirely possible). You’ve peaked my curiosity. How do you know it has a sensitive liver? What kind of symptoms pointed you in that direction?

KHobalt said:
Today is the third day since he's had the seizure and it actually looks like he is starting to return to normal. He ate a small dish of termites and several calcium dusted flies. He is still somewhat reclusive (for this particular tink), he no longer ducks to the floor everytime I open the cover to his container. I was certain he was a goner but now I'm more cautiously optimistic.

Thanks so much for your posts guys. It's a great learning experience.

Ken
I'm glad to hear that he is doing better! Hopefully he’ll be back to his old self in no time at all. Just remember to keep an eye on him for at least the next couple of weeks and keep us up to date!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,229 Posts
Re: update

Every other should be enough, but I know a few people who dust daily with no issues. Good to hear he might be doing better. Keep us updated.

KHobalt said:
I have heard mixed reviews about Panacur as well. By some accounts, people use it prophylactically without ill effect. But bone marrow suppression is not a good thing and I imagine it would lead to an increased susceptibility to infections. This frog received 4 weeks of panacur (weekly, so only four treatments) and 3 weeks of Ivermectin. So he has completed the full course, and I'm no longer giving any more meds. In this case, I believe that the antiparasitics were very much needed as the frog was rapidly losing weight and the fecal revealed an extensive worm load. Given the heavy parasite load, perhaps the brain had been parasitized, and in that case, I don't think there's much we can do about the seizures. The frog did respond remarkably well to the anti-parasitics and actually LOOKS much better.

I upped the calcium supplementation to every other day. I used Rep-Cal and Herptivite. Do you think it may be good to supplement everyday? I hear that can be hard on the liver and this particular frog has a sensitive liver.

Today is the third day since he's had the seizure and it actually looks like he is starting to return to normal. He ate a small dish of termites and several calcium dusted flies. He is still somewhat reclusive (for this particular tink), he no longer ducks to the floor everytime I open the cover to his container. I was certain he was a goner but now I'm more cautiously optimistic.

Thanks so much for your posts guys. It's a great learning experience.

Ken
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
whoops

Sarah,

I didn't interpret your comments about treating the frog as being in any way condescending or chastising me. I really appreciate your comments and input as to the situation (as well as everyone elses of course)! So no, I thank you for your comments

Haha, I didn't realize I wrote that the frog had a sensitive liver. I think I meant to say that the frog MAY have a sensitive liver given that it's had a lot of meds. I guess there's no way to tell for sure outside of a liver biopsy, and I doubt that this procedure would be done on a living frog.

Welp, cross your fingers and hope for the best!

I'll keep y'all updated!

Ken
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
I had a gray tree frog seize up on me today not too long ago and die... He was bloated with air and I grabbed him and he proceeded to Pass right in my hand and went completely stiff...
Neurological or something I have no idea
Hope you find this interesting.
 

·
Registered
Mantella baroni, Dendrobates auratus, Afrixalus dorsalis, Theloderma corticale
Joined
·
255 Posts
I upped the calcium supplementation to every other day. I used Rep-Cal and Herptivite. Do you think it may be good to supplement everyday? I hear that can be hard on the liver and this particular frog has a sensitive liver.
Rep-Cal with vitamin D? Otherwise your frog might still have a calcium deficiency as without vitamin D the calcium is not absorbed properly. By my knowledge Herptivite also does not contain preformed vitamin A but beta-carotene instead, which amphibians do not convert very well to vitamin A. I would recommend switching to a different supplement that is specific for amphibians and that contains vitamin D and preformed vitamin A. For example something like repashy cal plus, dendrocare or birkahn.

With regards to the panacur (Fenbendazole), I heavily dislike that it is generally recommended for use in dart frogs in a dusting form. Pretty much all medicins have a very narrow range of concentrations in which they are effective against the problem without causing (too) much problems for the animal. However when dusting flies with medicin there is no proper way of dosing. Especially considering that sick animals will usually eat less than healthy ones. I would always opt for a dissolved form that can be applied topically if possible.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
4,829 Posts
Rep-Cal with vitamin D? Otherwise your frog might still have a calcium deficiency as without vitamin D the calcium is not absorbed properly. By my knowledge Herptivite also does not contain preformed vitamin A but beta-carotene instead, which amphibians do not convert very well to vitamin A. I would recommend switching to a different supplement that is specific for amphibians and that contains vitamin D and preformed vitamin A. For example something like repashy cal plus, dendrocare or birkahn.

With regards to the panacur (Fenbendazole), I heavily dislike that it is generally recommended for use in dart frogs in a dusting form. Pretty much all medicins have a very narrow range of concentrations in which they are effective against the problem without causing (too) much problems for the animal. However when dusting flies with medicin there is no proper way of dosing. Especially considering that sick animals will usually eat less than healthy ones. I would always opt for a dissolved form that can be applied topically if possible.
All great advice. This is a seventeen year old thread, though (new necrobump record?) so likely not a live issue. It is troubling, though, that such dated practices (RepCal/Herptivite) are still with us so much that we can't tell that two decades have passed. :unsure:

Let's close this one and leave it as a historical curiosity. :)
 
1 - 10 of 10 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top