[blew42]

Hi all, first-timer here. I’m towards the end of the first steps of my vivarium build, and I wanted to see what people thought about this sealing dilemma I’m having before I move forward with substrate/planting.

I made the mistake of not using silicone on the glass before spraying the initial foam layer, and I also had not used this foam before and didn’t realize how it can pull away from the glass based on how you apply it (and given the unusual nature of my hexagon-sides). As a result, there is a large gap between the glass and the foam that extends to the middle-bottom of the background (see pictures). I sealed all of the other edges with silicone, but can’t access this spot as easily+it’s not easy given how much space there is.

The mess you can see at the bottom is from when I tried to re-fill with foam and then removed it afterwards. Structurally, I feel like the background is ok. But I am worried about having this gap at the back+having it be connected to the empty space behind the glass. Would this lead to unwanted moisture behind the background/could this lead to mold/structural issues down the road?

Apologies for the wordy explanation, but I wanted to have seasoned eyes take a look at this and let me know what they think. Appreciate any input!

 

[solidsnake]

Congratulations on deciding to move forward with your first vivarium build! I’ve built a handful myself, but not nearly as many as some of the more experienced members on the board.

What inhabitants are you building it for?

In my experience, building a background entirely out of expanding foam has been hit or miss in terms of it detaching from the glass and overall longevity.

The best luck I’ve had was cleaning the glass with rubbing alcohol, then siliconing light diffuser panel “egg crate” to the glass. After dried, I then applied the expanding foam. I feel as though the egg crate provides a better surface for the expanding foam to “grip”.

Other members have used different methods and had success too though. Some have also had less desirable outcomes.

Only time will tell if your background will remain attached. If it does begin to separate, just glue it back on with more expanding foam, gorilla glue or reattach it with some silicone. Depending on where you’re at with things, it may be the time to revamp the build. Then again, it could last forever. lol

These uncertainties(amongst other shortcomings) are why I quit using expanding foam for major pieces of my viv builds.

Post some pics as you make progress. It’ll be cool to follow along.

 

[blew42]

Congratulations on deciding to move forward with your first vivarium build! I’ve built a handful myself, but not nearly as many as some of the more experienced members on the board. What inhabitants are you building it for? In my experience, building a background entirely out of expanding foam has been hit or miss in terms of it detaching from the glass and overall longevity. The best luck I’ve had was cleaning the glass with rubbing alcohol, then siliconing light diffuser panel “egg crate” to the glass. After dried, I then applied the expanding foam. I feel as though the egg crate provides a better surface for the expanding foam to “grip”. Other members have used different methods and had success too though. Some have also had less desirable outcomes. Only time will tell if your background will remain attached. If it does begin to separate, just glue it back on with more expanding foam, gorilla glue or reattach it with some silicone. Depending on where you’re at with things, it may be the time to revamp the build. Then again, it could last forever. lol These uncertainties(amongst other shortcomings) are why I quit using expanding foam for major pieces of my viv builds. Post some pics as you make progress. It’ll be cool to follow along.

Making this for dart frogs! I was going to let it ride for a month or so to make sure everything is running smoothly before getting them, though. I could see this lasting, but will also be monitoring that during the cycling period to make sure the frogs' home doesn't collapse on them later, lol. Aside from structure though, does this raise any immediate concerns for you? I wasn't sure the extent to which the silicone/sealing agents that people use is for attachment/aesthetics as opposed to a need to make sure that water/moisture isn't creeping through the foam/backside of the background. I'll be sure to post more pictures!

 

[solidsnake]

I don’t have any first hand experience with frogs. So I can’t really comment on frog related stuff.

The only concerns I would have with your current setup is ventilation. Aquariums are obviously made for fish and don’t have vents on their sides to allow fresh air to enter.

Installing vents can avert this issue, but not all aquarium glass is able to be drilled to install vents. They also don’t have front-opening doors. Not having these doors can add difficulty to easily accessing the enclosure’s interior for routine maintenance.

However, yours appears to have a door? It’s hard to tell from the picture.

Posting good pictures of your fully planted enclosure, along with the top and indicating what species of frogs you want will help the pros guide you to success.

 

[Rmgink]

Hey there first time I have replied to any thing. I had the same problem with my first build that you are having. That was a few builds ago. The best option I found was making sure all the edges were properly sealed and I also cut a few slices into the background where the foam is still close and shot some silicone into them. It was extremely difficult with the tank size I was working with being a 75 gal. It took 3 people to lay it on its back. But it worked great for several years. And even after the front panel and side panel shattered it still held up.

 

[fishingguy12345]

What are the dimensions of the terrarium?

 

[Josh loves dart frogs]

What are the dimensions of the terrarium?

Thrive Tropical Reptile Vertical Hexagon Terrarium -20 Gallon | reptile Terrariums | PetSmart

Thrive Tropical Reptile Vertical Hexagon Terrarium -20 Gallon at PetSmart. Shop all reptile terrariums online

www.petsmart.com

Looks something like this

 

[blew42]

Thrive Tropical Reptile Vertical Hexagon Terrarium -20 Gallon | reptile Terrariums | PetSmart

Thrive Tropical Reptile Vertical Hexagon Terrarium -20 Gallon at PetSmart. Shop all reptile terrariums online

www.petsmart.com

Looks something like this

That's the one

 

[blew42]

Well I went ahead and powered through; not pictured, but I took some pieces of foam, covered them in silicone, and shoved them into the back/generally tried to get as much silicon back there as I could. I think it worked 🤷‍♂️. I made the mistake of locking those logs into place early, so that back area is kind of inaccessible in general.

Anyways, here's the updated/finished (frogless) vivarium: Substrate is Reptisoil that I added a box of sphagnum moss to, drainage is hydroballs, and I used window screen to separate. Dumped the springtail culture I got on top of the screen, added substrate and isopods, and planted away.

I added black cling film to the back sides to hide the imperfect foam job. Unscrewed the top mesh/grid from the frame and replaced with a cut glass top + ~3 inches left behind it where I added window screen. I have the mister temporarily duct taped into place while the cling film is drying, but have the tubing in place - I ran it through a hole in the top mesh screen and then wedged it behind the plastic knobs on the underside of the top frame that used to secure the metal mesh into place - I was very happy with how well this worked, and was able to repurpose the old screws/washers to make sure the tubes don't slip out.

Main things left to do are hide that drain tube, seal up the glass/mesh at the top, and add leaf litter. Also still think I need to play around with the directions to point the misters. Any and all thoughts/feedback/advice are appreciated!

 

[fishingguy12345]

Substrate is Reptisoil that I added a box of sphagnum moss to,

This substrate mixture is going to retain way too much water.

That's the one

What species of dart frogs are you intending for this tank? It's dimensions (19.1 in L x 16.6 in W x 22.4 in H) are smaller than is recommended on this forum for basically any dart frog species...

 

[Rmgink]

Looks great. Glad to hear you trued to get some silicone back there.

 

[blew42]

This substrate mixture is going to retain way too much water.

What species of dart frogs are you intending for this tank? It's dimensions (19.1 in L x 16.6 in W x 22.4 in H) are smaller than is recommended on this forum for basically any dart frog species...

Even with the spaghnum moss added? Based on the ingredients, that seemed like the main difference between it and ABG

I was looking at Ranitomeya imitator. Josh's Frog's said 2-3 would do well in a 12x12x18 / 10 gallon tank - this one is 20 gallons so I thought it would be ok

 

[fishingguy12345]

Even with the spaghnum moss added?

Especially with the sphagnum moss added. Sphagnum moss retains a ton of moisture which is already a problem with reptisoil (I used it on my first builds and had to replace it after about 6 months when it became rancid and waterlogged...)

Ranitomeya imitator are a good choice for this size of tank. To give the frogs the most use of the space you can add more branches/wood, bromeliads sticking out into the open spaces. (Frogs aren't like fish where a volume of empty space is particularly useful... Frogs need ways to use the space).

 

[bulbophyllum]

Even with the spaghnum moss added? Based on the ingredients, that seemed like the main difference between it and ABG

I was looking at Ranitomeya imitator. Josh's Frog's said 2-3 would do well in a 12x12x18 / 10 gallon tank - this one is 20 gallons so I thought it would be ok

Homemade substrate mixes go bad and turn into glop is a very short time more often then not. Use a time tested mix from a good source or gravel.

Josh's frogs recommends what is currently considered by most hobbyists to be the bare minimum.

Your tank is on the small side but still workable for a pair of imitators if you make the whole tank usable.

 

[blew42]

Especially with the sphagnum moss added. Sphagnum moss retains a ton of moisture which is already a problem with reptisoil (I used it on my first builds and had to replace it after about 6 months when it became rancid and waterlogged...)

Ranitomeya imitator are a good choice for this size of tank. To give the frogs the most use of the space you can add more branches/wood, bromeliads sticking out into the open spaces. (Frogs aren't like fish where a volume of empty space is particularly useful... Frogs need ways to use the space).

Gotcha, that's helpful to know, guess I should have done some more thorough reading. I had assumed the purpose of that in the mixtures was to space it out so it could drain better. Is there anything you would recommend I add to balance it out, or am I committed to this substrate now? I do have room for more volume

I tried to create a little "nook" up there to make those two logs kind of continuous with each other/make a big spiral going up. I realize there is a decent gap between the ledge and that first log - other than that, anything come to mind as to how I could make that feature specifically more enticing? Was going to put leaf litter up there, definitely like the bromeliads idea once I can get my hands on some (just went with the plants available at the local shop). Should I nix the moss up there?

 

[fishingguy12345]

Should I nix the moss up there?

For me, yes remove it plus any other moss that's taking up floor or branch space.

Is there anything you would recommend I add to balance it out, or am I committed to this substrate now?

Replace with ABG, or a different substrate... Trying to make it "less bad" isn't likely to result in "good" substrate IMO.

 

[blew42]

Replace with ABG, or a different substrate... Trying to make it "less bad" isn't likely to result in "good" substrate IMO.

So I assume that means I need to get new cleanup crew as well?

 

[fishingguy12345]

So I assume that means I need to get new cleanup crew as well?

You can keep the substrate in another bin to use to rear a master cleanup crew culture

 

[Socratic Monologue]

If you do discard the substrate, double bag it and put it in the trash. Never release isopods outside. Just a reminder.

Yes, the substrate you have isn't anything like ABG, but ABG is the way to go.

I like the way you handled the top, but keep in mind that a viv without low vents to allow fresh air to enter can be a ventilation challenge. It would be good to search 'ventilation' and also 'humidity' and order the results by date and read all the hits from the last couple years.

I agree that R. imitator would be an OK choice, and a sexed pair would have the best chance of success. Same-sex issues with imitators are common enough that any other mix leaves open the potential for problems.

 

[blew42]

Update:

I took out as many handfuls of the old substrate as I could and replaced with ABG. Went ahead and dumped the whole bag in and tried to mix it all together as best I could. I will keep watching and maybe will "rotate" the substrate like this again at some point. I really don't have any interest in culturing isopods or springtails right now, but i did keep all of the substrate that I removed and set it aside in plastic storage container (also tried to rescue some of the isopods i could see and put them back in the tank)

Also added some leaves and took out all of the ground moss. Going to leave the moss up top for now until I can get some bromeliads/other plants. Also, based on the way the doors look after being misted, it seems like the air coming in through the gaps on the sides/bottom of the door at the front may be sufficient ventilation for my setup. Biggest priorities right now are bromeliads/getting stuff to connect some of the higher areas and add more walkable space/cover. Any more thoughts? Thanks for following along everyone!