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"Farm Raised" ?

6K views 66 replies 23 participants last post by  Ed 
#1 ·
Just curious to know what people think when they see "Farm Raised" animals for sale? Are they really raised in a captive situation? or are they plucked out of the wild and placed in a holding facility, until they have time for their numbers to be built up. I know with other herp species like Python regius that "Farm Raised" is nothing more than wild caught. Just curious if it is similar in the Dendrobatid world.

Thanks,

Jim Giacobbe
 
#5 ·
I found this out after buying some "farm raised" pumilio. I was even told about the "farming" operation (outdoor enclosures open to the rain with fruit placed inside to attract fruit flies). I was really disappointed to find out the truth and don't plan to buy any more "farmed" frogs.

These operations are permitted by the host nation and they have to document the number exported, but I've been told that some nations just don't care about conservation as much as others. That's why you see "farm raised" frogs coming out of only a few countries.
 
#6 ·
I myself stay far away from farm raised. Not only to do my part in preserving the species ,but also so i dont purchase any frogs with Diseases our parasites. Most respectable breeders here on DB have their froglets fecals tested and and get them dewormed. Dont get me wrong , I still deworm and QT any new frogs, or froglets before sell or introducing into their new environment.

I have never purchased Farm Raised Frogs , but I have heard and read many bad stories.
 
#7 ·
Although this gets into another matter entirely, I do think they are related. As I understand it, many "farm raised" frogs are collected by locals, so there is no reliable locale data. Unfortunately, the vast majority of frogs in the hobby don't have good locale data, which increases the chance of breeding frogs in captivity that might look similar, but whose wild populations are physically separated and would not ever come into contact. Conversely, some populations (such as certain Bastimentos populations) have a tremendous color variety within a given population, but hobbyists breed like-colored specimens instead of breeding the different color variations from the same wild population.

My point is that "farm raised" frogs could be mixtures of populations or could be from a highly varied contiguous population. So, if you do have "farm raised" frogs or are purchasing their offspring, try to keep the import groups together. There is a higher probability that a single import group came from the same region than groups collected over several years.

My future purchases will likely be limited to those that have good locale data.
 
#12 ·
Pineapple farms would be virtual deserts for pumilio. They're grown in monoculture and in full sun, so there isn't a frog around that would go for a pineapple farm. Banana and cacao plantations potentially provide suitable habitat because they keep a closed canopy, but the BIG caveat to that is that they would have to be low use and no pesticides, and on anything more than a few plants, there will be too much disturbance for the frogs.

I've been all around the area in Bocas and have talked to numerous locals, and there are not any farms. On more than one occasion, I had to pay a lot more money for going onto particular areas because people traditionally go there to collect frogs. I've seen pictures of "farms" but oddly enough, when I ask where they are or if I can visit, there is a no-go (you would think that if folks truly had farms that were truly breeding the frogs on-site, then they'd be all for showing that to folks). The "farms" that exist only exist so that exporters can get around CITES regulations for pumilio.

Nijman and Shepherd (2010) had an interesting figure in their paper on the role of Asian trade on dart frogs. From 2004-2008, 14956 pumilio were exported globally and reported to CITES. Of that, only 400 were reported as wild caught. I call a big ol' BS on that one. Only 100 WC frogs per year coming in? Not a chance in the world.
 
#10 ·
I've tried VERY hard to uncover evidence of ANY type of pumilio "farming operation"....

and in all the people, I've talked to - research scientists in-country, native citizens and industry people...not one single person has indicated that they have ever seen or heard of such a thing as a pumilio farming opertation, or even a "sustainable plot of land" like a cocoa plantation or large screened in facility.

There are no Farms, as far as I'm concerned.
 
#13 ·
The problem with this is that no one actually knows where this place is (it very easily could be in Florida, for that matter; there is no indication that it's actually in Panama). When asked, the site has remained secret. The key, IMO, is that there is reproduction going on, and I just don't see that happening. There are eggs, but there is no evidence IMO, that that is the only frogs that eventually go out. Farmed frogs are coming in with scrapes and scars, which you really should not see in captive frogs. I've spoken with Chris van der Lingen and he's said the same about them not being around (and he's been all over the Bocas region).
 
#14 ·
I've spoken to a reputable breeder, who's name I will not mention, about a frog farm he is setting up. My understanding is its a long process to get all the red tape taken care of with the local govt of wherever the farm is. Also, I remember him telling me that no frogs can be harvested from the farm until the f2 generation. Even then, he is only allowed 5 pairs of each species to be exported. Keep in mind, o. Pumilio are all the SAME species so even though he may be farming several morphs, they count toward his 5 pairs per species limit. This is all information I got from an hour long phone conversation with this person.
 
#16 ·
And, I can tell you this from being down there....


If you are a ****** and want to export some frogs, you absolutely need:

1. An excellent command of Spanish language.

2. An "in" like a relative, wife, girlfriend, someone seriously trusted.

3. both 1 and 2.



Or most likely, you and your bank account....will get rolled.
 
#21 ·
What I mean is, they have to breed/hatch/morph 2 generations of frogs successfully before they can export. Yes, I was TOLD 5 pairs per species is his limit, I believe, each year. It is likely, once he gets these 5 pairs in the states I PRESUME he breeds these pairs to produce captive bred offspring. I would have to speak with him again, or maybe try to get him to post on here how he does it.
 
#22 · (Edited)
#24 ·
. There are actual pictures of farming practices.

Pumilio Farm:
welcome

Here is an old thread:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/20396-frog-farms.html
Unless you know firsthand, who took those photos, then we may as well be talking about bigfoot.....I'm skeptical.

And that old chestnut of "we can't disclose the location due to bla bla"....well, again...as long as we have a respected U.S Hobbyist that can say "yep...I took those pics....I can verify.....we can't say where the Farm is exactly, but yes, I can report that it is a real operation".

Until I have that, I'm not buyin' it......
 
#23 ·
Am I the only one who dosen't see much wrong with the above link (first one)? The only thing that annoyed me was them holding all the frogs by one leg. I guess if you hold hundreds of frogs a day that may be the easiest way... Still, It LOOKED like a "farming" type setup. Lots of separate locations for different morphs. That pic with the Pumilio all on that small branch with the cups attached was great.
 
#26 ·
The only thing that annoyed me was them holding all the frogs by one leg.
that's actually the accepted way to hold small frogs.....you can alternately use the fleshy part of the side, back part of your thumb and the side / fleshy part of your pointer finger - just like you are making a "mouth" with your hand....if that makes sense.
 
#33 ·
I feel another issue that is sometimes overlooked, is the fact that a lot of the countries that have these "Farms" it is illegal to export wild animals. So what better way to dress these little herps up as Holsteins and send them to other countries under the guise of being captive bred and born. It's a shame that countless numbers of animals have to suffer, just so a few greedy folks can make some green. I'm not against importing to bolster genetic diversity in species that really need the help. As long as it is legal and totally on the up and up. But to do it, and lie about their origins is just unacceptable!
 
#37 ·
I feel another issue that is sometimes overlooked, is the fact that a lot of the countries that have these "Farms" it is illegal to export wild animals.

One of the things that needs to be kept in the front of this discussion is that the goverment of that country can issue export permits that are legal. It is export without the permit that is illegal.

The better question to ask, is how many adults of each pumilio type would be needed to produce the number of sexually mature frogs of each type that we are seeing in the shipments?

Ed
 
#39 ·
Even if it was such a preventative measure (I'm personally skeptical), there is no way that there are enough rearing sites for all of those frogs. I mean, if you consider a female may be able to take care of 6 tadpoles over the course of two months, and then consider that there are probably 100+ individuals (probably 100 females along) in one of those holding areas. There is no way that there are enough sites there to accommodate all of those tadpoles. I think you'd have tadpoles eating tadpoles and females eating eggs of other females in such an area.

Such crowding is more indicative of a holding area to me than a breeding area.
 
#44 ·
Im not in any way defending farming practices, or attacking them, just discussing possibilities. The crowding does seem to be reminiscent of puppy mills. Im am absolutely sure this leads to every frog having every parasite the others do. However, the size of the enclosure vs. The size of the frog brings to question, how big of an area do Pumilio live in? Its doubtful they travel around a lot. Seems likely they stick to their own little patch of forest. Maybe even as little as a few square yards. Population density aside, they may be in an enclosure that is about the size of an area they would normally habitate. The natural wild Pumilio population density is likely geared more toward available food and breeding sites than aggression I would think, as there are infinitely more line of sight blockers and hiding spots for pressured individuals. As for tad rearing sites, it seems likely they would daily be harvesting eggs or deposited tads and putting them in incubation tanks. That would cause the breeders to breed more as they aren't taking care of the young. As an example, if a squirrel raids a bird nest for the eggs, the parents will lay a new batch of eggs. If the original eggs aren't molested and survive, the parents focus on rearing the young versus laying more eggs.
 
#45 ·
Im not in any way defending farming practices, or attacking them, just discussing possibilities.
I didn't think you were, I was just pointing out that there are other models that also work without the issues you were bringing up.


The crowding does seem to be reminiscent of puppy mills. Im am absolutely sure this leads to every frog having every parasite the others do.
I'm not sure that they wouldn't even housed in a different set-up.

However, the size of the enclosure vs. The size of the frog brings to question, how big of an area do Pumilio live in?
It depends on the resource availability. For example female pumilio are known to ascend many meters up into the canopy for tadpole depostion sites, and they defend these sites from other females. So a single female pumilio could have a defended territory of many cubic meters....



Its doubtful they travel around a lot. Seems likely they stick to their own little patch of forest. Maybe even as little as a few square yards. Population density aside, they may be in an enclosure that is about the size of an area they would normally habitate. The natural wild Pumilio population density is likely geared more toward available food and breeding sites than aggression
The amount of space they naturally inhabit is pretty variable... as it is all dependent on the location of proper calling perches as well as egg and tadpole deposition sites. Food defense doesn't really enter into it as small invertebrates like ants are very prevelent.

There was a good discussion on frognet back around 2003 on pumilio and these sorts of topics. Search the frognet.org archives for pumilio and ruderal and that should pull it up.


I would think, as there are infinitely more line of sight blockers and hiding spots for pressured individuals. As for tad rearing sites, it seems likely they would daily be harvesting eggs or deposited tads and putting them in incubation tanks. That would cause the breeders to breed more as they aren't taking care of the young. As an example, if a squirrel raids a bird nest for the eggs, the parents will lay a new batch of eggs. If the original eggs aren't molested and survive, the parents focus on rearing the young versus laying more eggs.

The problem with this scenario is that the tadpoles are obligate egg feeders... so pulling tadpoles to rear doesn't give you a huge rearing advantage as you have to feed the tadpoles the eggs produced or you end up with massive losses, poor growth and developemental issues like spindly leg. If you are counting on native feeders coming into the cages to supply the needed nutrition, and you are constantly pulling eggs, then the females are also going to become nutrient depleated....
 
#47 ·
i see everyone point and we also have to consider that everything we get either hobby or food source is farmed in some way i just dont want to see the illegals that are being seen in the trade and whos to say that legal paperwork cant be rewritten to cover the illegals from being exported
 
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