[Dendrobatid]

Just curious to know what people think when they see "Farm Raised" animals for sale? Are they really raised in a captive situation? or are they plucked out of the wild and placed in a holding facility, until they have time for their numbers to be built up. I know with other herp species like Python regius that "Farm Raised" is nothing more than wild caught. Just curious if it is similar in the Dendrobatid world.

Thanks,

Jim Giacobbe

 

[edwing206]

I think the general consensus on this forum is that the "farm raised" frogs, especially O. Pumilio are nothing more than wild caught frogs. I make an effort to buy only captive bred for the sake of doing my part in preserving wild populations. It may not be much but I think it adds up when a lot of people do the same.

 

[Eric Walker]

I agree. although I have purchased wc treefrogs in the past.

 

[Mitch]

When I hear "farm raised" I think of WC, and nothing else.

 

[JimO]

I found this out after buying some "farm raised" pumilio. I was even told about the "farming" operation (outdoor enclosures open to the rain with fruit placed inside to attract fruit flies). I was really disappointed to find out the truth and don't plan to buy any more "farmed" frogs.

These operations are permitted by the host nation and they have to document the number exported, but I've been told that some nations just don't care about conservation as much as others. That's why you see "farm raised" frogs coming out of only a few countries.

 

[SamsonsFrogs]

I myself stay far away from farm raised. Not only to do my part in preserving the species ,but also so i dont purchase any frogs with Diseases our parasites. Most respectable breeders here on DB have their froglets fecals tested and and get them dewormed. Dont get me wrong , I still deworm and QT any new frogs, or froglets before sell or introducing into their new environment.

I have never purchased Farm Raised Frogs , but I have heard and read many bad stories.

 

[JimO]

Although this gets into another matter entirely, I do think they are related. As I understand it, many "farm raised" frogs are collected by locals, so there is no reliable locale data. Unfortunately, the vast majority of frogs in the hobby don't have good locale data, which increases the chance of breeding frogs in captivity that might look similar, but whose wild populations are physically separated and would not ever come into contact. Conversely, some populations (such as certain Bastimentos populations) have a tremendous color variety within a given population, but hobbyists breed like-colored specimens instead of breeding the different color variations from the same wild population.

My point is that "farm raised" frogs could be mixtures of populations or could be from a highly varied contiguous population. So, if you do have "farm raised" frogs or are purchasing their offspring, try to keep the import groups together. There is a higher probability that a single import group came from the same region than groups collected over several years.

My future purchases will likely be limited to those that have good locale data.

 

[frogparty]

When I hear "farm raised" frogs I just figure they were living on someones pineappple or banana farm, and were wild collected. Sure they came off a "farm" but its not a farm for raising frogs. Although I would bet there could be a lot of good pumilio habitat on a pineapple farm

 

[stemcellular]

I assume they are WC frogs.

 

[Philsuma]

I've tried VERY hard to uncover evidence of ANY type of pumilio "farming operation"....

and in all the people, I've talked to - research scientists in-country, native citizens and industry people...not one single person has indicated that they have ever seen or heard of such a thing as a pumilio farming opertation, or even a "sustainable plot of land" like a cocoa plantation or large screened in facility.

There are no Farms, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[ChrisK]

I'm not arguing the point in one direction or the other, but what's this? http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/20396-frog-farms-3.html#post187327

 

[MonarchzMan]

When I hear "farm raised" frogs I just figure they were living on someones pineappple or banana farm, and were wild collected. Sure they came off a "farm" but its not a farm for raising frogs. Although I would bet there could be a lot of good pumilio habitat on a pineapple farm

Pineapple farms would be virtual deserts for pumilio. They're grown in monoculture and in full sun, so there isn't a frog around that would go for a pineapple farm. Banana and cacao plantations potentially provide suitable habitat because they keep a closed canopy, but the BIG caveat to that is that they would have to be low use and no pesticides, and on anything more than a few plants, there will be too much disturbance for the frogs.

I've been all around the area in Bocas and have talked to numerous locals, and there are not any farms. On more than one occasion, I had to pay a lot more money for going onto particular areas because people traditionally go there to collect frogs. I've seen pictures of "farms" but oddly enough, when I ask where they are or if I can visit, there is a no-go (you would think that if folks truly had farms that were truly breeding the frogs on-site, then they'd be all for showing that to folks). The "farms" that exist only exist so that exporters can get around CITES regulations for pumilio.

Nijman and Shepherd (2010) had an interesting figure in their paper on the role of Asian trade on dart frogs. From 2004-2008, 14956 pumilio were exported globally and reported to CITES. Of that, only 400 were reported as wild caught. I call a big ol' BS on that one. Only 100 WC frogs per year coming in? Not a chance in the world.

 

[MonarchzMan]

I'm not arguing the point in one direction or the other, but what's this? http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/20396-frog-farms-3.html#post187327

The problem with this is that no one actually knows where this place is (it very easily could be in Florida, for that matter; there is no indication that it's actually in Panama). When asked, the site has remained secret. The key, IMO, is that there is reproduction going on, and I just don't see that happening. There are eggs, but there is no evidence IMO, that that is the only frogs that eventually go out. Farmed frogs are coming in with scrapes and scars, which you really should not see in captive frogs. I've spoken with Chris van der Lingen and he's said the same about them not being around (and he's been all over the Bocas region).

 

[tim13]

I've spoken to a reputable breeder, who's name I will not mention, about a frog farm he is setting up. My understanding is its a long process to get all the red tape taken care of with the local govt of wherever the farm is. Also, I remember him telling me that no frogs can be harvested from the farm until the f2 generation. Even then, he is only allowed 5 pairs of each species to be exported. Keep in mind, o. Pumilio are all the SAME species so even though he may be farming several morphs, they count toward his 5 pairs per species limit. This is all information I got from an hour long phone conversation with this person.

 

[frogmanchu]

i think we should all stick to captive breed frogs. it leaves frogs in this world to do there jobs Eat Bugs lol. really tho i think we do enuff damage by deforesting why take everything from nature let it keep it beauty and secrets. jus my belief

 

[Philsuma]

I've spoken to a reputable breeder, who's name I will not mention, about a frog farm he is setting up. My understanding is its a long process to get all the red tape taken care of with the local govt of wherever the farm is. Also, I remember him telling me that no frogs can be harvested from the farm until the f2 generation. Even then, he is only allowed 5 pairs of each species to be exported. Keep in mind, o. Pumilio are all the SAME species so even though he may be farming several morphs, they count toward his 5 pairs per species limit. This is all information I got from an hour long phone conversation with this person.

And, I can tell you this from being down there....


If you are a ****** and want to export some frogs, you absolutely need:

1. An excellent command of Spanish language.

2. An "in" like a relative, wife, girlfriend, someone seriously trusted.

3. both 1 and 2.



Or most likely, you and your bank account....will get rolled.

 

[Dendroguy]

I think they just buy large areas of land and say anything there is 'farm raised'

 

[MonarchzMan]

I think they just buy large areas of land and say anything there is 'farm raised'

This wouldn't necessarily be a problem, but I would guess that this actually isn't the issue since there are many morphs coming in..

 

[frogface]

I've spoken to a reputable breeder, who's name I will not mention, about a frog farm he is setting up. My understanding is its a long process to get all the red tape taken care of with the local govt of wherever the farm is. Also, I remember him telling me that no frogs can be harvested from the farm until the f2 generation. Even then, he is only allowed 5 pairs of each species to be exported. Keep in mind, o. Pumilio are all the SAME species so even though he may be farming several morphs, they count toward his 5 pairs per species limit. This is all information I got from an hour long phone conversation with this person.

I think I'm not understanding what you're saying here. This person is setting up a farm and raising frogs to F2 so that he can export 5 pairs of pumilios?

 

[Dendrobatid]

How would be sure that the frogs were F2?