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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Or perhaps like with Australian animals being imported out of New Guinea the border is just something casually overlooked by exporters :rolleyes:
 

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Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)

Umm....I've never seen this happen. You normally see them come from Europe. What species of Aussies are coming out of New Guinea?

Or perhaps like with Australian animals being imported out of New Guinea the border is just something casually overlooked by exporters :rolleyes:
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)

Umm....I've never seen this happen. You normally see them come from Europe. What species of Aussies are coming out of New Guinea?
Many of the Blue Tongue skinks, River Dragons and Bent Toe geckos that have popped up in the hobby in the last couple of years are not native to Indonesia but are found in Queensland instead. This being a short boat ride from some of the Indonesian islands lead to the assumption that they have been smuggled out of Australia.

The same happened in the late eighties with the many varities of dwarf monitors, skinks and knob tails that popped up on the market virtually out of nowhere. Europe is merely the point where WC animals had been laundered to provide them with the status of CB. I have seen first hand supposed CB animals with ticks, mites, scale discoloration and old scars all of which are typical of what you would see in WCs.
 

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Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)

I can tell you for sure these have all come from New Guinea. As for the bent toes, a few have been mislabled as Aussie species, but they have been New Guinea animals (many undescribed). Aussie and New Guinea (and close by islands) have very similar animals, including Blue Tongues. What species of River Dragons have come in? Quite a few undescribed and familar New Guinean species have been imported to date, but no Aussie species, at least through Indo channels. Maybe you're aware of something I'm not. However, I am familiar with all the exporters and very familiar with what comes into this country, from whom, and when.

Many of the Blue Tongue skinks, River Dragons and Bent Toe geckos that have popped up in the hobby in the last couple of years are not native to Indonesia but are found in Queensland instead. This being a short boat ride from some of the Indonesian islands lead to the assumption that they have been smuggled out of Australia.

The same happened in the late eighties with the many varities of dwarf monitors, skinks and knob tails that popped up on the market virtually out of nowhere. Europe is merely the point where WC animals had been laundered to provide them with the status of CB. I have seen first hand supposed CB animals with ticks, mites, scale discoloration and old scars all of which are typical of what you would see in WCs.
 

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Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)

Many of the Blue Tongue skinks, River Dragons and Bent Toe geckos that have popped up in the hobby in the last couple of years are not native to Indonesia but are found in Queensland instead. This being a short boat ride from some of the Indonesian islands lead to the assumption that they have been smuggled out of Australia.

The same happened in the late eighties with the many varities of dwarf monitors, skinks and knob tails that popped up on the market virtually out of nowhere. Europe is merely the point where WC animals had been laundered to provide them with the status of CB. I have seen first hand supposed CB animals with ticks, mites, scale discoloration and old scars all of which are typical of what you would see in WCs.
None of those species warrant the prices needed to even contemplate smuggling them....They are all readily available from many different localities in Indo......Your not going to take a Blue Tongue from Australia, launder it through Indo, then expect to anyone to pay anymore than $55 for it.......Not lucretive at all.......

However, there is a rife blackmarket trade in Australian animals, and there always will be......That's lucretive......You want to make something popular? Ban it.......

Now back to South America......I'd be willing to bet there are "Flavescens" type animals in Surinam.....Just because you don't see them around doesn't mean all that much.......After all, why don't we see Tinctorious come out of Guyana? They're there.....Nobody doesn't want to spend the time and money to collect them though......
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)

I can tell you for sure these have all come from New Guinea. As for the bent toes, a few have been mislabled as Aussie species, but they have been New Guinea animals (many undescribed). Aussie and New Guinea (and close by islands) have very similar animals, including Blue Tongues. What species of River Dragons have come in? Quite a few undescribed and familar New Guinean species have been imported to date, but no Aussie species, at least through Indo channels. Maybe you're aware of something I'm not. However, I am familiar with all the exporters and very familiar with what comes into this country, from whom, and when.
So you are telling me that every animal that has come in the last two years was properly labeled and accurately imported? Stretches belief don't you think? And keep in mind that I know the same exporters and importers that you do. Also keep in mind that New Guinea is actually separated between two nations only one of which allows export, curiously species are becoming available from both parts of New Guinea.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)

None of those species warrant the prices needed to even contemplate smuggling them....They are all readily available from many different localities in Indo......Your not going to take a Blue Tongue from Australia, launder it through Indo, then expect to anyone to pay anymore than $55 for it.......Not lucretive at all.......

However, there is a rife blackmarket trade in Australian animals, and there always will be......That's lucretive......You want to make something popular? Ban it.......

Now back to South America......I'd be willing to bet there are "Flavescens" type animals in Surinam.....Just because you don't see them around doesn't mean all that much.......After all, why don't we see Tinctorious come out of Guyana? They're there.....Nobody doesn't want to spend the time and money to collect them though......
Well its always good to hear a "Jobbers" perspective on things. So there is no money in some of the tree monitors currently being offered? Is this really what you would care to have us believe?
 

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Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)

Well its always good to hear a "Jobbers" perspective on things. So there is no money in some of the tree monitors currently being offered? Is this really what you would care to have us believe?
No not really......

There was when they first came in, but not really now.......How much money do you think as a "jobber", I can make on a Prasinus complex Monitor?

On another note - How do you know what I do or not do? Do you know me personally? Do you know what I'm breeding and/or keeping?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)

No not really......

There was when they first came in, but not really now.......How much money do you think as a "jobber", I can make on a Prasinus complex Monitor?

On another note - How do you know what I do or not do? Do you know me personally? Do you know what I'm breeding and/or keeping?
Well for starters I know you aquire most of your stock from Strictly Reptiles. I know you work with breeding a handful of geckos and other species, but almost everything you sell on Kingsnake is WC. As a "Jobber" you probably aren't making much on the tree monitor you mentioned, on the other hand the original importer can have a mark up of over 300% since the going rate for most of these "gray market monitors" is about $75-125 in Indonesia versus the $300-$500 plus that they retail for.

Please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken in any of my facts.
 

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Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)

Well for starters I know you aquire most of your stock from Strictly Reptiles. I know you work with breeding a handful of geckos and other species, but almost everything you sell on Kingsnake is WC. As a "Jobber" you probably aren't making much on the tree monitor you mentioned, on the other hand the original importer can have a mark up of over 300% since the going rate for most of these "gray market monitors" is about $75-125 in Indonesia versus the $300-$500 plus that they retail for.

Please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken in any of my facts.
I do? Really? I work with many different Hobbiests, Breeders, and Importers.......Strictly gets stuff from me, and I get stuff from Strictly....No different than the myriad of other Business relationships I have with people....I produce my own animals, but Geckos aren't any part of that......Maybe in the future, but not now.......You really know me so well don't you? If you did, you'd know that Turtles/Tortoises are my first passion when it comes to Reptiles.......


But I digress......The going rate for the higher end Prasinus complex Monitors are around $125 in Indo, plus Freight at $22-$30 a kilo ( Freight doesn't go down only up..... ), Permit Fees, Box Fees, and Fish and Wildlife once they get here ( Which has tripled in two years, and goes up more every year.....)......

So I'd have close to $200 into each Monitor that I brought in.......If you knew the Wholesalers that much, you'd know what the going Wholesale price for them is.......Seeing that Prasinus retails for around $350, you can do the math and figure out that bother margins are paper thin, and loosing one animal can put both parties in the red.......You could make an argument for Macraei, but the scenario is the same, since they cost more out of Indo......

That scenario holds true for most things you see retailed.....Even on the retail end, profit margins aren't huge at all unless you produced it yourself, and it's a new product.......Then you have to factor in the fact that some things cost a whole lot more to produce than others.......

Simple? No......

Complicated? Yes......
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)

I do? Really? I work with many different Hobbiests, Breeders, and Importers.......Strictly gets stuff from me, and I get stuff from Strictly....No different than the myriad of other Business relationships I have with people....I produce my own animals, but Geckos aren't any part of that......Maybe in the future, but not now.......You really know me so well don't you? If you did, you'd know that Turtles/Tortoises are my first passion when it comes to Reptiles.......


But I digress......The going rate for the higher end Prasinus complex Monitors are around $125 in Indo, plus Freight at $22-$30 a kilo ( Freight doesn't go down only up..... ), Permit Fees, Box Fees, and Fish and Wildlife once they get here ( Which has tripled in two years, and goes up more every year.....)......

So I'd have close to $200 into each Monitor that I brought in.......If you knew the Wholesalers that much, you'd know what the going Wholesale price for them is.......Seeing that Prasinus retails for around $350, you can do the math and figure out that bother margins are paper thin, and loosing one animal can put both parties in the red.......You could make an argument for Macraei, but the scenario is the same, since they cost more out of Indo......

That scenario holds true for most things you see retailed.....Even on the retail end, profit margins aren't huge at all unless you produced it yourself, and it's a new product.......Then you have to factor in the fact that some things cost a whole lot more to produce than others.......

Simple? No......

Complicated? Yes......
So you are telling me you are importing your own animals out of Indonesia?
 

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Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)

So you are telling me you are importing your own animals out of Indonesia?
I can if I wanted to......I've got the contacts to do it......I may bring in an Indo shipment later in the year, but I'm not interested in Blue Tongue Skinks or Water Monitors at the moment......
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)

I can if I wanted to......I've got the contacts to do it......I may bring in an Indo shipment later in the year, but I'm not interested in Blue Tongue Skinks or Water Monitors at the moment......
So where have you imported from in the last year?
 

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Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)

I think you are missing the point. Aussie animals are not being smuggled into the US through Indo. You were mistaken on the blue tongues, bent toes, etc. It's no big deal, I could see your confusion.

So where have you imported from in the last year?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)

I think you are missing the point. Aussie animals are not being smuggled into the US through Indo. You were mistaken on the blue tongues, bent toes, etc. It's no big deal, I could see your confusion.
Eric,

And I think you have missed my point. Unless you have physicly been to those places like I have and have actually done business with some of the exporters it is impossible to realize how close some of those islands are to the Australian mainland not to mention how much actual border crossing happens between Irin Jaya(which is part of Indonesia and allows exportation) and Papua New Guinea(which is an independent nation and does not). Just because the sums of money in question don't seem like much to Americans doesn't mean that they aren't a year's worth or potentially more annual income to the natives.

The reason I asked you about your actual experience is to establish how much you actually knew about the facts on the ground. There are Papua New Guinea and Queensland animals coming into the country as we speak. To claim otherwise is either foolish or criminal and I will leave it up to you to decide which category you fall into.
 

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Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)

I don't doubt Irian Jaya and New Guinea are coming across each others borders, however, I do know collection permits are given from both countries of the island as I've had a friend obtain permits to collect fish from both countries, and they offered for him to collect reptiles as well.

Back to Aussie animals, because that is what is in doubt.
What species of bent toes? What species of tree dragons. As for the blue tongues, still, I've only seen non Aussie varieties come in, but since Aussie populations are in the hobby as well, it would be hard to separate them. So, let's leave those ones out.

Again, if this is happening, I'd like to know.

Eric,

And I think you have missed my point. Unless you have physicly been to those places like I have and have actually done business with some of the exporters it is impossible to realize how close some of those islands are to the Australian mainland not to mention how much actual border crossing happens between Irin Jaya(which is part of Indonesia and allows exportation) and Papua New Guinea(which is an independent nation and does not). Just because the sums of money in question don't seem like much to Americans doesn't mean that they aren't a year's worth or potentially more annual income to the natives.

The reason I asked you about your actual experience is to establish how much you actually knew about the facts on the ground. There are Papua New Guinea and Queensland animals coming into the country as we speak. To claim otherwise is either foolish or criminal and I will leave it up to you to decide which category you fall into.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)

I don't doubt Irian Jaya and New Guinea are coming across each others borders, however, I do know collection permits are given from both countries of the island as I've had a friend obtain permits to collect fish from both countries, and they offered for him to collect reptiles as well.

Back to Aussie animals, because that is what is in doubt.
What species of bent toes? What species of tree dragons. As for the blue tongues, still, I've only seen non Aussie varieties come in, but since Aussie populations are in the hobby as well, it would be hard to separate them. So, let's leave those ones out.

Again, if this is happening, I'd like to know.
The species that sticks most in my head is Cyrtodactylus Louisiadensis which I have seen offered on a couple of occasions in the past year. I have also seen a number of Hypsilurus species offered and a number of Tiliqua species which do not match anything coming out of NG.
 

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Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)

Just because the sums of money in question don't seem like much to Americans doesn't mean that they aren't a year's worth or potentially more annual income to the natives.
If that's true they'll probably catch and export anything - imagine how many people here would catch and sell a couple of squirrels for 50K?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)

If that's true they'll probably catch and export anything - imagine how many perople here would catch and sell a couple of squirrels for 50K?
Exactly!!! Which is why it is either foolish or being an apologist for the Importers to claim that it never happens.
 

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Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)

C. lousisadensis has not come in, but a similar species being offered. Talk to the hardcore gecko fans out there and they can confirm. As for the Hypsilurus, I've had roughly half of the ones that have come in pass through my hands (in the last 5 years), all New Guinean species, primarily Hypsilurus nigrigularis
(but imported as H. godeffroyi), both species are not found in Aussie land. As for Tiliqua, nothing but WC animals of Non Aussie origin. You do see CBB babies of Aussies for sale, but they never are imported, but bought from breeders. Werid.

The species that sticks most in my head is Cyrtodactylus Louisiadensis which I have seen offered on a couple of occasions in the past year. I have also seen a number of Hypsilurus species offered and a number of Tiliqua species which do not match anything coming out of NG.
 
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