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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is going to sound crazy, but what if multi-generation frogs are breeding less because they have less stress on their populations than do wildcaughts?

A loose example: My friend in CA helps to manage animals at an african wild animal park. His herd of gazelle were not producing. The managers then put a cheetah holding in plain view of the gazelles. The cheetas and the gazelles watched each other. The gazelles started popping out babies like mad the next season.

Even though our husbandry is lacking in so many ways, life is still really easy for frogs in captivity. Mortality is relatively low. The frogs in later generations do not have the high stress to preserve their genes as fast as possible. The frogs that survive the stress of the wild and then survive the stress of being imported are going to feel the stress of needing to reproduce like crazy. However, our many of our F whatevers don't even have to compete with other frog species, let alone members of their own.

In addition, all of the tricks we use to make sure most of our eggs hatch, and froglets live, is severely limiting the already diminished effects of natural selection in captivity. With medicine and stuff we make sure frogs live and reproduce that probably shouldn't have made it past froglethood. We could be breeding what should have been discarded genes back into the population again and again, and perhaps reduced production is one of the affects.

Of course the answer to the downsized reproductions is most likely an extensive patchwork of factors, and maybe these are factors that can be thrown into the pot. The one certainly may explain why a period of less food or "dry season" seems to encourage breeding behavior after the fact.
 

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Lydia,

I think you make some good points.

Ideal weight is another one. Anyone ever noticed their frogs don't breed as much when they are fat - overweight - well fed? I know Kyle had this issue, slimmed his frogs down and they began to breed.

We had bearded dragons, and were never able to get them to breed - ours were always healthy, lazy chunks. We had frilled dragons and we were able to breed them - we watched their diet closely.

Anyone else ever noticed the relationships between weight & breeding?

Melis

Lydia said:
This is going to sound crazy, but what if multi-generation frogs are breeding less because they have less stress on their populations than do wildcaughts?

A loose example: My friend in CA helps to manage animals at an african wild animal park. His herd of gazelle were not producing. The managers then put a cheetah holding in plain view of the gazelles. The cheetas and the gazelles watched each other. The gazelles started popping out babies like mad the next season.

Even though our husbandry is lacking in so many ways, life is still really easy for frogs in captivity. Mortality is relatively low. The frogs in later generations do not have the high stress to preserve their genes as fast as possible. The frogs that survive the stress of the wild and then survive the stress of being imported are going to feel the stress of needing to reproduce like crazy. However, our many of our F whatevers don't even have to compete with other frog species, let alone members of their own.

In addition, all of the tricks we use to make sure most of our eggs hatch, and froglets live, is severely limiting the already diminished effects of natural selection in captivity. With medicine and stuff we make sure frogs live and reproduce that probably shouldn't have made it past froglethood. We could be breeding what should have been discarded genes back into the population again and again, and perhaps reduced production is one of the affects.

Of course the answer to the downsized reproductions is most likely an extensive patchwork of factors, and maybe these are factors that can be thrown into the pot. The one certainly may explain why a period of less food or "dry season" seems to encourage breeding behavior after the fact.
 

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Ya I had this with my Leucs and Azureus, both were over weight and after dropping the food and the weight they started to breed. Both took about a month or so 2 drop the wieght, and to be honest I have a hard time still not overfeeding.

melissa68 said:
Lydia,

I think you make some good points.

Ideal weight is another one. Anyone ever noticed their frogs don't breed as much when they are fat - overweight - well fed? I know Kyle had this issue, slimmed his frogs down and they began to breed.

We had bearded dragons, and were never able to get them to breed - ours were always healthy, lazy chunks. We had frilled dragons and we were able to breed them - we watched their diet closely.

Anyone else ever noticed the relationships between weight & breeding?

Melis

Lydia said:
This is going to sound crazy, but what if multi-generation frogs are breeding less because they have less stress on their populations than do wildcaughts?

A loose example: My friend in CA helps to manage animals at an african wild animal park. His herd of gazelle were not producing. The managers then put a cheetah holding in plain view of the gazelles. The cheetas and the gazelles watched each other. The gazelles started popping out babies like mad the next season.

Even though our husbandry is lacking in so many ways, life is still really easy for frogs in captivity. Mortality is relatively low. The frogs in later generations do not have the high stress to preserve their genes as fast as possible. The frogs that survive the stress of the wild and then survive the stress of being imported are going to feel the stress of needing to reproduce like crazy. However, our many of our F whatevers don't even have to compete with other frog species, let alone members of their own.

In addition, all of the tricks we use to make sure most of our eggs hatch, and froglets live, is severely limiting the already diminished effects of natural selection in captivity. With medicine and stuff we make sure frogs live and reproduce that probably shouldn't have made it past froglethood. We could be breeding what should have been discarded genes back into the population again and again, and perhaps reduced production is one of the affects.

Of course the answer to the downsized reproductions is most likely an extensive patchwork of factors, and maybe these are factors that can be thrown into the pot. The one certainly may explain why a period of less food or "dry season" seems to encourage breeding behavior after the fact.
 

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Lydia -
Good observation. A thread should be started regarding various environmental stimuli that encourage breeding. I think this is great stuff and hope the moderators could move it to a new thread because many might only read this thread because it deals with receiving eggs that are bad and what are the reasons/solutions.
I'm not sure if the use of the word 'stress' is accurate. The 'dry season' nature can be stressful to frogs, but is completely natural. Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that bad eggs cold be due to overbreeding because a dry season might not be given by the hobbiest. Some might feel that neglecting their frogs is stressful. I agree, but only to a certain extent. Not watering and feeding on your 'normal' night could happen because you're busy or slackin' However, environmental changes in moisture, temps, food happen all the time. What you perceive as being a bad owner could be entirely natural to the frogs, but remember this is only to a certain extent because these creatures do depend on you. I would like to see someone post the dry seasons and wet seasons for Peru, Ecuador etc.

Shaking things up does exactly that. I believe changes in what is regarded as 'normal' is good.

When I use to breed dwarf monitors. I would move them 1.1 or 1.2, they would breed well for a certain length of time. They would breed every 2 - 4 months. After time, this became normal. At the four month point, if no breeding had taken place, I would vacuum about 2" of their soil away and spread new stuff. For some reason, breeding occured - usually - within a month.
The ultimate example of shaking things up and the results that could happen occured with my frogs last week. For over two years I had a group of red amazonicus that never bred. I changed around their terrarium 4 - 5 times during the two years, but always kept the group together. This last spring I bought a group of 4 more - same line. Never any breeding. Last week I put together a new terrarium and took a male from one and a female from the other and placed them in a new terrarium. Within 24hrs, I had eggs. I repeated the precess the next night - a male and female from different enclosure into a new terrarium. Poof.... had eggs. I did the same the third night - new pairing and received eggs. I had 2.1 left and tossed them into a holding tank because I did not have a fourth new tank designed. They also laid eggs.

Jon
 

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Jon after people read that post, I think your amazonicus list is gonna get alot longer! :D
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks for the additional discussion and input. We need as many takes on these things as possible to put together the big picture.

I'm probably just being a stiff when I say this, however I would like to defend my use of the term stress.

I do understand where people would shy away from things that are labeled to give their frogs "stress" because stress with us has such a negative connotation. I think this is anthropomorphism and could further contribute to the misunderstanding of the way some of the world works.

The fact is that stress (or changing conditions, or conditions that force "innovation", or whatever makes it sound better to you) on many biological systems encourages growth, and generally strengthens organisms fit to reproduce and weeds out those that are not.

Obviously there are exceptions to everything. Anyone who's messed with coral has experienced that first hand :(

In any event, I don't mean to tell people what's what. Just thinking about stuff.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
It'd be cool if some people from the bad eggs thread could cut and paste some of their environmental stuff that didn't get moved, too, to round out the new thread.
 

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I had a leucs that weren't doing anything for awhile so I split up the group and gave them a new cage and within a 2 weeks I had eggs, I think the "stress" of a new enviroment definitely helps some frogs get going.
 

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Lydia,

It's an interesting observation that stress would cause reproductive activity. It does ring some bells with me, as my endocrinology prof. did studies related to cortisol levels inducing the ritualistic mating behaviors so often seen in birds. If I'm not mistaken, stress usually elevates cortisol levels in many animals . . . might there be a connection there?

I don't know, just hypothesizing and extrapolating.

Homer
 

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Anyone out there have any ideas about temp and misting amounts for breeding stimuli in pumilio. I get an occasional call out of my bastimentos but thats about it...right now my cage is around 76-78 and full of bromiliads..still nothing.

Anyone have similiar suggestions for almirante? I know I saw someone post that they got tads, but I could not find the person when I went back to look. I got one batch of bad eggs from these guys and thats about it...the male called, the female layed, but no good eggs

Also are you guys housing your bastimentos in pair or groups?

Thanks for the suggestions.

-Mike
 

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Well if you have pumilio it's probably been reccomended to you to keep them in 1.1 pairs. So, to test this theory, somebody could put 2.1 or 1.2 in a 20g and see what happens. I would do this myself but I only have 2 (probably male) almirante. As for the almirante question, the thread is http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2834 . Good luck w/ the almirante :)
 

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Patrick keeps his @ 1.1 , so as far as I know he is the man where pumilio are concerned . I also keep mine in a 1.1 groups . They lay all the time , I never had any luck in groups . I find that I don't mist alot or do anything really special ,just keep the brom water fresh seems to do the trick .
Good luck , it's really cool to see a little baby pumilio hopping around , expecally when you diden't know that they had even been laying eggs !!
Have fun !!

Darren Meyer
 

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*crosses fingers and hopes that when AZDR comes up I can get a female ;)* Hehe I mist once every other day or so. I change the times around so one day i'll mist in the morning and one day at night. I really hope it works, this is why I got into the hobby (to watch the adults raise the young).
 

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Jon Werner said:
Last week I put together a new terrarium and took a male from one and a female from the other and placed them in a new terrarium. Within 24hrs, I had eggs. I repeated the precess the next night - a male and female from different enclosure into a new terrarium. Poof.... had eggs. I did the same the third night - new pairing and received eggs. I had 2.1 left and tossed them into a holding tank because I did not have a fourth new tank designed...
Could it be possible that some frogs are reluctant to breed with tank mates that were together growing up??

Could it also be possible that introducing frogs that came from different tanks, to a new environment, triggers the same response as if the frogs travel to a new area and meet the locals? Thus they are interested to spread their genes around?

Do they have that kind of intellegence?

SB
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Hi,
I have 4 green pumilios and have 3 in a 20 vert.I have them in a 2.1 right now and the males have some calling duals but no major fighting yet.They are still young and are approximately 5 months old so I keep a close eye on them to make sure they aren't stressing each other out.
Mark W.
 

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EverettC said:
Well if you have pumilio it's probably been reccomended to you to keep them in 1.1 pairs. So, to test this theory, somebody could put 2.1 or 1.2 in a 20g and see what happens. I would do this myself but I only have 2 (probably male) almirante. As for the almirante question, the thread is http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2834 . Good luck w/ the almirante :)
My 1.2 group of Nic. blue jeans has been breeding for years. I've actually witnessed egg dumping by one female who deposited eggs on the freshly fertilized clutch of the other. In the early days the group was 2.2 and competition among the males limited reproduction to almost nothing.

Personally I think the 20g vivs that many people are trying to breed pumilio in are too small. Yes, I know that several people are having luck breeding pumilio in 20T tanks but my theory is that this is approaching the lower limit of what will work and the odds of success increase as you move to larger tanks.

I have not quite figured out the relationship between misting and reproduction. I agree with Darren that flushing the broms with fresh water is key. Early on I kept my pumilio viv pretty wet and the male called for awhile and then stopped, then I cut way back on misting and the male started singing like mad but no reproduction. Then I cranked up the mist again and started getting reproduction. I've kept it that way for years with misting about 5 times a day and the frogs produce froglets at a slow but steady pace. I think the misting is not necessarily a trigger for mating as the males just sing or don't sing according to their own schedule. However, I do think different populations of pumilio may have different egg care behaviors and the amount of misting is important for egg maintenance. The thinking (and I can't take credit for this) is that pumilio from wetter regions are more sloppy about keeping their eggs wet while those from slightly dryer habitats are more deligent. Indeed, I have found clutches of eggs dried out on leaves if I forgot to fill the misting reservoir for a few days.

So back to the original issue of sex ratios, again I think this is somewhat dependent on the size of the viv. In a very large viv, you can probably get by with a group but this will vary with individual frogs. For the most part, 1.1 is probably best but then we don't know how important mate choice or competition might be in driving pumilio reproduction either.
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
steelcube said:
Could it be possible that some frogs are reluctant to breed with tank mates that were together growing up??

I have experienced the same thing my trio of Tincs that grew up together and were not intreasted in breeding even at 13 months until I seperated one female away from the group and left a 1.1 ratio. Which they didn't breed either. When I reintroduced the female back into the group a month or so later, I had eggs the next day, and had to remove the OTHER female due to the sparing matches between the two females. :shock: They've been breeding ever since but the only thing I did to "trigger" it was the seperation period, but it's the same tank they grew up in they are now breeding in. :D
 

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steelcube said:
[Could it be possible that some frogs are reluctant to breed with tank mates that were together growing up??

Could it also be possible that introducing frogs that came from different tanks, to a new environment, triggers the same response as if the frogs travel to a new area and meet the locals? Thus they are interested to spread their genes around?

Do they have that kind of intellegence?

SB
I have suspected that something like this might happen but hadn't really thought about the possible evolutionary significance. I don't think it requires intelligence though. Interesting thought.
 

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Could it be possible that some frogs are reluctant to breed with tank mates that were together growing up??
Could it be an anti inbreeding mechanism??

Could it also be possible that introducing frogs that came from different tanks, to a new environment, triggers the same response as if the frogs travel to a new area and meet the locals? Thus they are interested to spread their genes around?
For the females I guess it's for producing stronger/variable offsprings.

SB
 

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What steelcube says makes a lot of sense. We know that if a species interbreeds too much the offspring come out bad(small, stupid, etc) or deformed. This same reason could also be a part of the spindly legs issue, although it happens in the wild as well. Just because something lives in the wild doesn't mean it won't interbreed, but the chances are greatly reduced.
 
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