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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
I remember that thread from when it was active Bryan, but I don't think we have enough research to prove that outbreeding wouldn't produce positive results. I do know that sooner or later we will be faced with the impact of breeding the same gene pool over and over without new blood lines
 

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I think most fogs in the hobby are indeed very inbred (as is the case for most things people try to domesticate or keep as pets). Which is why you get abnormalities like albinism popping up at a much higher frequency than in the wild.

And I don't know how I feel about the whole outbreeding depression thing. The paper the Ed presented once about it wasn't very convincing about it being a really huge threat, especially since it was comparing it to inbreeding depression. As I remember it, the repercussions of outbreeding were much less severe and much less immediate than inbreeding. So I really don't understand why outbreeding depression even gets brought up. It's like saying, "hey, there's this thing that might be potentially down the line, so let's not do that, and instead do this other thing that we know is WORSE". And isn't it like, a common practice to outcross sickly animal and plant strains into healthier ones to get a healthier stock that you can cross back with the original stock?

I've got nothing against preserving the way a morph looks because you want a representative holotype of the locality which it came from. In fact, I'm all for it, given that the forests that it came from might be totally gone in 50 years (or sooner). It's just that I feel bringing up outbreeding depression is a poor argument for continuing to inbreed.
 

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I don't disagree with the concern over inbreeding's negative effects. I also don't understand the results of outbreeding depression as fully as some people, or which could potentially be more problematic.

Clearly I think the best solution is to manage the frogs better when they are first imported. In addition to breeding frogs together from the same import, people need to know what breeder their cb frogs came from, and preferrably, the import info from the breeder. Otherwise, we have people with unknown frogs that look like they are from a certain population, but without knowing for sure, people keep them separate to be safe. After a few generations, these isolated frogs become inbred and the hobby may have artificially separated a frog population when it shouldn't have just because of lack of import info.

One of the problems with trying to outbreed for stronger genetics I think is finding suitable frogs to breed. Like I said before, some pumilio in the Bocas del Toro region may overlap in populations a little, but the frogs in the hobby available for crossing may only be from the two extremes. In Popa "north", (which look like the Popas I have) the frogs were smaller, darker, had no or very few spots, etc. compared to the Popa "south" frogs. If the hobby's Popa "south" frogs are few in number and have been inbred for generations, I would think a good candidate to try crossing would be from the intermediate zone between the north and south populations (if there is overlap). That would get some new genes involved in a way that occurs in the wild. However, if we only have Popa "north", I don't think that would be good to cross with Popa "south". Hopefully that makes sense.

Bryan
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
I would have to agree 100%. The paper you are talking about says the risks would be low, but it is speculation really. Has it been tried? One example given was that an F1 x f9 breeding would also be a risk for OD. You know damn well this happens all the time now. As long as Auratus have been in the hobby I guarentee there are breedings that take place that are like f6 x f15. There is more of a risk that they are inbred as hell.
I have seen no research findings to back any of it up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
Bryan, no disrespect, but no it doesn't. You are putting to much importance on the visual traits of the Popa morph. Maybe a Popa just needs to be a healthy Popa not a certain color Popa. Visual traits are put before health which will eventually lead to the end of the hobby.
 

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I would have to agree 100%. The paper you are talking about says the risks would be low, but it is speculation really. Has it been tried? One example given was that an F1 x f9 breeding would also be a risk for OD. You know damn well this happens all the time now. As long as Auratus have been in the hobby I guarentee there are breedings that take place that are like f6 x f15. There is more of a risk that they are inbred as hell.
I have seen no research findings to back any of it up.
Yeah, I could've sworn that I read in the paper that the authors themselves stated that they weren't sure about how penetrant or severe the effects of outbreeding were. I'm glad someone else actually read that part too haha. But the "depression" wasn't anywhere near as severe as inbreeding. And did they compare outbreeding to like, a control "normal" group's depression? I don't think they did? I wouldn't imagine that the outbreeding depression would be significantly higher than the normal depression.
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
that's why i brought up research findings. without a known control it is a guess. I got the impression it was speculation. i didn't see where actual testing on dart frogs occurred. People need to stop getting all their info from "so and so on dendroboard said"
 

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Bryan, no disrespect, but no it doesn't. You are putting to much importance on the visual traits of the Popa morph. Maybe a Popa just needs to be a healthy Popa not a certain color Popa. Visual traits are put before health which will eventually lead to the end of the hobby.
Maybe I didn't phrase it well... I'm not saying that visual appearance is a guaranteed identifier of a frog's population, but what I was trying to show with the physical traits comparison is that the two locales I saw were uniformly different from each other. It wouldn't have surprised me if the two were found on separate islands. I thought the goal of outbreeding was to cross an inbred animal with a genetically similar (if no unrelated specimens from the same population are available) animal to diversify and strengthen the gene pool, no? If so, wouldn't it make sense to try to cross frogs from closer locales that overlap and share the same gene pool, rather than from distant areas that would never come in contact in the wild?
Bryan
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 ·
yes, but i see no genetic differences between north and south Popa other than color. As a matter of fact, all populations in del torro are genetically matched
 

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What do you mean all bocas del toro populations are genetically matched? If they were separated onto different islands thousands of years ago and evolved to have different colors, patterns, size, etc. then they have some different genes. They would all be the same if they were genetically identical.
Bryan
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
Look up the paper I posted a picture of earlier and read it. It is actual research breeding across different del torro populations not speculation based off of doberman pinser dogs
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
And I didn't say genetically identical, I said genetically matched. Genetically identical is caused by inbreeding.
Wild populations vary in size and color as evidenced earlier in this thread. Just as a skinny guy with blonde hair and blue eyes can breed with a fat woman with green eyes and red hair and have fertile healthy kids, pumilio from different populations can too. Researched and proven and documented.
 

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Discussion Starter · #53 ·
I do have a question for you. You stated that the populations have been on different islands for thousands of years. With the make up of the del torro islands, I have to ask how you know this? Where is your evidence? I ask because less than 100 years ago, Vandalia, Illinois was on the east side of the missisippi river which is pretty wide river. Today, Vandalia, Illinois is on the west side of the river and technically in Missouri but a concession was made. The river changed course and eroded its new course. Do you know the islands were not connected?
 

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I do have a question for you. You stated that the populations have been on different islands for thousands of years. With the make up of the del torro islands, I have to ask how you know this?
From History of Bocas del Toro Archipelago :
"The islands of Bocas del Toro were formed 8,000 to 10,000 years ago when the sea level rose with the melting of the polar caps at the end of the Ice Age. These islands were separated from the rest of Central America and so plants and fauna evolved that were unique to the region. For example the red poison dart frogs."

And I didn't say genetically identical, I said genetically matched...Just as a skinny guy with blonde hair and blue eyes can breed with a fat woman with green eyes and red hair and have fertile healthy kids, pumilio from different populations can too.
My mistake, I misunderstood what you meant when you said "genetically matched."
I don't disagree that different pumilio populations could breed and produce healthy offspring.

Maybe we aren't on the same page big picture about the whole oubreeding and natural overlap discussion. The way I see it, if you have to outbreed because the current stock is too inbred, you have two goals: 1) to strengthen the genetics by introducing new genes into the current limited gene pool, and 2) to do so in a way that keeps the frogs as close to the original wild type. So if you had the choice to outbreed two frogs from nearby, overlapping populations vs. one frog from one island with another from a completely different island or mainland miles away, wouldn't the former be a better choice?
Bryan
 
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There certainly are certain morphs and species that were imported in such small numbers that the ultimate genetic bottleneck will occur at some point but that is a small % of what is in the hobby. Tincs have been brought up a lot, GO/Regina, Brazilian & Lorenzo come to mind of limited founding stock. I think we are a long way from intermixing morphs to create additional genetic diversity, with even the 3 mentioned. I would agree that importers have created morphs to increase demand, the GO/Regina's, Siplawini's (the green, blue, yellow), Powder blue/grey, Alanis/Inferalanis and these could or could not be mixed depending on personal preference. To keep as many localities pure is certainly the standard we should be held to, these are not random gecko's so far removed from their wild counterparts that they no longer exhibit any characteristics found in their native habitat. Keeping our hobby as pure as possible is what we as community have chosen to do, if you are not part of that so be it, you certainly can do what ever you want with your hobby. I have long espoused that this is your hobby, make of it what you want. If that takes you outside accepted and implied standards be prepared to be judged, good or bad this is a very small community and though there are secrets out there, they usually don't stay secret very long.
I like this type of discussions as it makes us question what we have in place and why, perhaps a day will come when answers are different but for now there is still so much new that changing some of the old isn't really necessary.
 

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And I didn't say genetically identical, I said genetically matched. Genetically identical is caused by inbreeding.
Wild populations vary in size and color as evidenced earlier in this thread. Just as a skinny guy with blonde hair and blue eyes can breed with a fat woman with green eyes and red hair and have fertile healthy kids, pumilio from different populations can too. Researched and proven and documented.
I think using humans is a very good analogy because as a species we have very little genetic variability and are pretty inbred (scientists think there was some bottleneck event early in our history). And as a species we display many inbred characteristics, like being generally frail, and having a high incidence of genetic disorders like cancer.

A better thought experiment would be to cross two humans from different populations that have been separated for many thousands of years. Enough time to display very different phenotypes (which is basically the argument against outbreeding). Let's chose an African person (from Ethiopia?), and an Asian person (China). I think their "interracial" children would be at least as healthy as the general population; even probably healthier. There might even be data to back this up. Anecdotally, there is a strong correlation between the general attractiveness of a person and their general health. I think it's generally established that interracial persons are ver attractive haha
 

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Discussion Starter · #57 ·
Mark,
I haven't got the impression that anyone is wanting to crossbreed or cross populations. I do feel that this is a good conversation to have though. I think members of the hobby need to know things like genetics of the frogs.
For years questions on mixed enclosures came up every week and people just replied you can't. Some said that because they heard someone else say it, others said so because they didn't want it to happen, but truth is it can be done and is done.
So that conversation needed to take place. I was called names and such but the conversation produced info for people to use for the benefit of the frogs. I haven't seen an influx of mixing since. To the opposite, I have seen a reduced number of hey can i posts.

Bryan,
I realize when they were created. but we don't know how many islands and there shapes and erosion, etc.
The missisippi river is damn old too. but like i said, it changed course and now a city in illinois is across the river. They say California erodes smaller and smaller each year.
 

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There are also people arguing their point for keeping pairs of tincs in 10 gallon tanks, just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
Mixing can be done correctly with proper planning, the right species, and appropriate sized tank. It its however not something that everyone will be successful at nor should everyone attempt. Especially new keepers just acquiring their first frogs

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
I agree completely. but I also know that just telling them no does not keep a beginner from doing so. By telling them what needs to be done, they decide not to do it because it is too much work. And if they do it, atleast they have the info to be successful and keep the frogs healthy.
 

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I have a 100 gallon tank in my family room and as a display I have often thought about a 2 species viv...how cool it would be...such a nice display. I tried it 1 time for about 2 days, with a pair of Auratus and a group of 1.3 Pumilio...too small, no way too small. If someone had a 250 to 300 gallon enclosure it might work under the right circumstances but if keeping your frogs under the best possible conditions is your ultimate goal, then likely you will come to the same conclusion I did. Unless I have a room size enclosure, 1 species per tank and when they have a lot of room, way too much then it is one very happy species per tank.
 
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