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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
And I see nothing wrong with that and I fully encourage it. A better understanding makes the hobby stronger. And discussions help. But those discussions don't happen here. People just answer NO. And I believe they know the answer is no but don't know why it is NO
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
A few years ago I was repeatedly called a troll because I encouraged discussions on mixed tanks. Self proclaimed forum experts can say NO all they want, but people are going to do it. So why not give them the info they need to be successful. Now there is a sticky. And the topic comes up less. Discussing a touchy subject produced positive results
 

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I dig that. I've been looking unto the whole alanis/inferalanis thing because thry look so much alike. All I found was a difference in importer and import date. Which brought about my questions.

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Because inferalanis is an invention of importers in the US. In Europe there is no such thing as inferalanis. They are kept together and bred together. The exporter said they all come from the same population in suriname. Some larger some smaller some more yellow some more orange but all the same population and all named after his daughter Alanis. Importers named the smaller ones interalanis to make more money. This could be a lesson in guilibility.
 

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I agree they are the same frog and can be bed together. Just like powder blue and powder grey are the same frog.

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Has anyone had two powder greys produce a powder blue frog? or two blues produce a grey?
Yes, powder grays have come from powder blues. By breeding two powder grays, it is selective line breeding for the gray color which does not occur in nature. Even though we are suppose to be keeping the frogs like their natural populations.
I recall a woman about 10 years ago was called names and chased off because she was line breeding albino alanis and it was not natural.
Speaking of natural, where is the natural locale of the Lemon Drop tinc? That is a trick question! Lemon drop tincs DO NOT OCCUR IN NATURE. Nope, lemon drop tincs are purposely line bred Saul tincs with the desired traits. Yep, the lemon drop morph is a creation of the people that tell you not to do such things.
And seeing how the first Sips were actually found while collecting Azureus and share markings of the Azureus, I have always wondered what the cross was? It is a natural cross not a man forced cross, but i believe it to be a distinct cross.
 

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Anyone have information on pumilio morph crosses? I am not going to do it, but I can't help but be curious about what the results would look like.
 

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Yes, powder grays have come from powder blues. By breeding two powder grays, it is selective line breeding for the gray color which does not occur in nature. Even though we are suppose to be keeping the frogs like their natural populations.
Got any pictures of two wc powder blues that produced powder greys? or a documented reference?
Greys most certainly do exist in nature. I just haven't found anyone with two blues or two greys throwing off both greys and blues. I have seen some muddled looking color offspring from a grey and blue bred together.
 

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Maybe Troy will "pitch in" about his cross breeding "experiments." I am still curious where these frogs went or if in his collection now.
 

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This reminds me of how a member (Jeremy huff?) was crossing giant orange and Regina becaue they come from the same population.

I always read on the board about how pumilio and wc animals have "so much variability", but when you look at most established morphs in the hobby, a lot of the frogs look almost identical
 

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But didn't both importers come forward and claim they marketed Reginas and GO's under different names for marketing? At one point Sean Stewart and Patrick Nabors pics claimed the complete oppisate description.
 

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Years ago I took a picture of what I believed to be an auratus/colbalt hybrid at a local pet store. I have since lost the pic, and the image site I guess is no longer hosting it. But...
It looked very much like this pic from the oddball cobalts thread, only I think it had less blue on the legs and wasn't quite as nice as this one being overall green with not so much or any blue...

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/de...every-strange-frog-dirty-hybrid-outcross.html

The only evidence that it was a hybrid other then how it looked was the fact cobalts and green auratus were being sold in the tanks next to it and all frogs were from a local breeder. Incidentally the patterning on the back of the colbalts next to it, like the V on the back was almost identical.

Also given the region of the country, how many people resell frogs from saurian.net locally, and just how many frogs originate from saurian period it is very likely this frog also originated from saurian, it is possible it was on of these "oddball cobalts" and not a hybrid...or somewhere down the line these "oddballs" actually did get some auratus blood mixed in and no one is aware of it, or willing to admit it.

So in the end I can't say for certain whether that frog, or any of these "oddballs" are hybrids. I'm just sharing what I know. Which is the possible hybrid I saw, looked very much like the one in the photo above.
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Well, when you think about it, aren't all frogs in the hobby technically linebred as well as inbred? If say 50 Popa (don't know off top of head) were imported, and are already all related and collected from the same spot. All Popa in the hobby are from those frogs. No new blood lines are introduced. There will be minimal variation like in the wild populations that are supposed to be represented.
Going back to the first Sips that were discovered while collecting Azureus. The pattern of the Sips is similar to Azureus but the coloration is different. Is the Sip an Azureus, a cross with a neighboring population, or just a tinc in the same locale as the Azureus? If they are both in the tinc family and the same locale, wouldn't they naturally breed among themselves?

I agree that Regina and Giant Orange are same population
Powder Blue and Powder Gray are same population
And Alanis and InferAlanis are same population.

These frogs are purposely linebred to produce certain traits. And as I stated earlier, the Lemon drop tinc is a designer morph created in the hobby by linebreeding Saul tincs. Frogs that are fine spot, micro spot, robins egg blue, etc are all line bred designer morphs as well. How is using linebreeding of a morph to create another morph not found in nature different than breeeding two morphs to create a designer morph when you think about it?

We need to document the line and locale and other information to track frogs back to the wild population. Is the locale of the Lemon drop tinc listed as so in so's frog room? Because that's where it was created.
 

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Here is the problem I forsee. Some of the tinc morphs are from one small local area. No matter which line you have, they are offspring of that one tiny local area. Therefore, they are all the same bloodline regardless of who you bought them from. period. Your male from Patrick and your female from SNDF are still related. Inbreeding generation after generation will eventually lead to problems.
With tincs there is some times a case where the frogs on one side of a ridge are one morph, the top of the ridge is another morph and the frogs in the valley on the other side are the third morph. Study a distribution map of tincs and see just how close locales truly are. In the del torro region of panama, pumilio populations are even closer to each other.
Would breeding neighboring tinc morphs produce a genetically superior frog by introducing a seperate blood line? I think maybe so.
While inbreeding can cause problems, outbreeding can also have issues. Ed has posted on this before. For example, see this thread which discusses both inbreeding and outbreeding: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/93340-breeding-question.html.

I'm certainly no pumilio expert, but I was just in the Bocas del Toro so I have a few observations about the frogs there. I saw multiple populations on both Bastimentos ("cemetery" and "red frog beach") and Popa (Popa "north" and Popa "south"). I didn't hike the entire island to see if the two populations overlap at all for each of these two islands, but I suspect they may at least some because there appears to be suitable habitat in between. However, the two extremes had noticeable differences and I would not mix the two from separate locales.

For example, RFB bastimentos were always red or red-orange with fine spots or no spots. The "Cemetery" bastimentos ranged in color from red, orange, yellow, white, etc. with larger spots and none were spotless that I saw. Essentially, if people decided captive bastimentos were too inbred so they would cross a RFB basti with a "cemetery" basti, I would say that type of cross does not naturally occur and it is a bad idea.
Bryan
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
Dave, like I stated earlier, it used to be tincs were tincs. There were no locales to speak off, just frogs. And alot of them. Many that aren't available today.
Back in the mid 90s, I saw an ad in the back of Reptiles magazine for a guy selling bearded dragons. I called him, and he lived a few blocks from ISU campus so my room mate and I walked over to get a beardie.
On shelves in a closet with open bi fold doors he had a few tanks with dart frogs. His tincs looked different than what I had, but they were indeed tincs. That is when I met Patrick Nabors and bought a beardie from him. Soon after he more away from lizards and into ALOT of frogs.

Offspring from tincs here back then could have some recessive traits that show sooner or later. And for the record, Patrick has been very diligent since tracking lines and locales began
 
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