Dendroboard banner
1 - 20 of 72 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
737 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Not my picture, saw it on facebook and thought it was worth posting here for archival reference. Cohabitating is a hot topic with some strong feelings but I think terribilis at least really should be a species only tank as evidenced by this picture.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
565 Posts
Yeah. My sympathies to the gecko but I'd be worried about the terribilis.
  • Prey item too big
  • Pathogens
  • Possible mechanical damage and infection from the struggling prey
I don't personally understand why some people are dead set on keeping Mourning Geckos with dart frogs, but as you say -- hot topic with strong feelings so I'll drop it for now.

And yes, my terribilis have tried to eat me so this comes as no surprise.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
4,147 Posts
I'm having a hard time with that photo.

Thanks for posting it -- people need to see it.

A little more info -- MG hatchlings are tiny. Any Dendrobates could do exactly this to one of them (and, for all we know, probably do unbeknownst to the keeper).
 

·
Registered
Dendrobates Tinctorus “Azureus”, Epipedobates Anthonyi “Santa Isabel”, and also myself.
Joined
·
524 Posts
By the way, what is the point of mixing animals? To show off your capabilities? To be like a zoo? To simply want to have 2 animals in the same cage so you can save money? I don’t get why people do this even when every corner of a frog care sheet literally says “DO NOT MIX SPECIES”.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
311 Posts
You beat me to it Minorhero. I saw the same post and was shocked. This looks like an adult gecko, to juvenile at the youngest. According the the OP on Facebook the gecko did indeed die. But like Fahad said, I'd be worried about the effects on the frog.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
110 Posts
For me it would be none of the above. It would be to create a more complete ecosystem for example and to fill the whole tank if you have a tall one with terrestrial and arboreal animals. Just like one would a proper aquarium.

That being said, I completely understand that frogs should be kept separate and I would not mix myself. Just trying to explain where such desires may come from without the negative connotations.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,528 Posts
For me it would be none of the above. It would be to create a more complete ecosystem for example and to fill the whole tank if you have a tall one with terrestrial and arboreal animals.
People heavily overestimate the size of the enclosure we work with all the time. There realy is no such thing as terrestrial or arboreal when given only a few centimeters..
 

·
Registered
Dendrobates Tinctorus “Azureus”, Epipedobates Anthonyi “Santa Isabel”, and also myself.
Joined
·
524 Posts
For me it would be none of the above. It would be to create a more complete ecosystem for example and to fill the whole tank if you have a tall one with terrestrial and arboreal animals. Just like one would a proper aquarium.

That being said, I completely understand that frogs should be kept separate and I would not mix myself. Just trying to explain where such desires may come from without the negative connotations.
That’s a good point but I should add mourning geckos originated on the other side of the world. Would it really make sense for a gecko from another continent to be put with a frog from the other side of the world? Now you could make points that mourning geckos were introduced to South American and Central American countries but that was brought to the country and didn’t originate their which probably brought a slew of problems to the ecosystem.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
110 Posts
Absolutely not, it would not make sense. I was trying to answer the genereal questions.

That being said, the question about the mourning geckos specifically could just as easily apply to the other absolutely necessary springtail, isopods, plants and leaves etc. Are they habitat specific?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
721 Posts
This looks to be a Brooke's House Gecko (or Common House Gecko, Hemidactylus brookii), in case anyone was wondering!

The above is incorrect, that is a Lepidodactylus Lugubris (Mourning Gecko). Apologies!
 

·
Registered
Dendrobates Tinctorus “Azureus”, Epipedobates Anthonyi “Santa Isabel”, and also myself.
Joined
·
524 Posts
Absolutely not, it would not make sense. I was trying to answer the genereal questions.

That being said, the question about the mourning geckos specifically could just as easily apply to the other absolutely necessary springtail, isopods, plants and leaves etc. Are they habitat specific?
I think my message came across as a little rude so please, I definitely didn’t mean to come across that way.

True, but once you add an animal which can potentially be hazardous to the environment, then that’s when you start to think about how wrong it is. Plus with plants, isopods, and etc. they aren’t a hazardous obstacle. (You can make a statement about some plants which will devour or kill other plants and the environment.)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
110 Posts
I think we agree completely. Until a small lizard appears that will clean their »teeth», rub their belly and tuck them in at night - stay away :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
565 Posts
For me it would be none of the above. It would be to create a more complete ecosystem for example and to fill the whole tank if you have a tall one with terrestrial and arboreal animals. Just like one would a proper aquarium.
First problem there is the false equivalency between a vivarium and an aquarium. You can't compare these organisms and the limited dimensions they traverse with a water column full of entirely different organisms.

Hobbyists don't have the resources and space to 'create a more complete ecosystem'.

My frog room is 30' x 14' and I don't have that kind of space nor the understanding to deal with that kind of complexity reliably, and I've been in and out of this hobby since I was a child and worked in the industry -- and you know what? I don't know **** beyond a basic foundation on how to keep these animals healthy in an artificial environment with strict parameters and limitations.

This one point is continuously misunderstood and overestimated by otherwise well-meaning, smart and interested people, and sometimes capitalized on by people out to make a buck.

What's "tall"? My tallest vivs are 36" tall. In a wild environment that's not "arboreal" that's scrambling over a fallen log. My "terrestrial" P. terribilis climb that high a few times a week when they're on the hunt.

That being said, I completely understand that frogs should be kept separate and I would not mix myself. Just trying to explain where such desires may come from without the negative connotations.
Of course, but other hobbyists often overestimate the extent of their knowledge and the quality of the knowledge that's being sold to them. I know I did, when I was much younger.

The accusation that gets leveled at boards like this (and my view in particular) is that it's dogmatic and elitist.

I get it. You can get away with a lot of things for a while. Sometimes a long while. But if you look at the potential lifespan of a dart frog -- say 20 years or longer -- that's a long timeline for variables in a dynamic biological system to go wrong.

I believe the tipping point applies to vivariums ... you have a system and keep giving it the same inputs, but at some point you get an unexpected result. Even with perfect, restricted husbandry, I've dealt with infected eyes likely due to mechanical injury, osmotic imbalance possibly caused by the stress of a physical injury (dislocated wrist it looked like) -- non-overt bullying ... and now you want me to throw more variables in like geckos with who-knows-what in their guts and doing weird gecko things in a confined space for years with frogs doing weird frog things ... no thanks. :LOL:

[...]

That being said, the question about the mourning geckos specifically could just as easily apply to the other absolutely necessary springtail, isopods, plants and leaves etc. Are they habitat specific?
We make compromises all the time because these habitats are artificial, but context and consequences are everything, so going back to false equivalencies, I don't believe the question just as easily applies.

A gecko is not a plant is not an isopod is not a leaf.

People also see mixed species exhibits in zoos but those zoos have a mandate to engage the public and represent something specific, have full-time, highly trained staff and veterinarians, and I imagine that sometimes they expect to lose animals in some of those exhibits in service of that mandate.

I believe it can be done, I just don't believe it should be done, and that belief is based on decades of observation and experience and talking to people much more knowledgeable than I am.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,081 Posts
There is real gold in here and I agree completely.

First problem there is the false equivalency between a vivarium and an aquarium. You can't compare these organisms and the limited dimensions they traverse with a water column full of entirely different organisms.

Hobbyists don't have the resources and space to 'create a more complete ecosystem'.

My frog room is 30' x 14' and I don't have that kind of space nor the understanding to deal with that kind of complexity reliably, and I've been in and out of this hobby since I was a child and worked in the industry -- and you know what? I don't know **** beyond a basic foundation on how to keep these animals healthy in an artificial environment with strict parameters and limitations.

This one point is continuously misunderstood and overestimated by otherwise well-meaning, smart and interested people, and sometimes capitalized on by people out to make a buck.

What's "tall"? My tallest vivs are 36" tall. In a wild environment that's not "arboreal" that's scrambling over a fallen log. My "terrestrial" P. terribilis climb that high a few times a week when they're on the hunt.



Of course, but other hobbyists often overestimate the extent of their knowledge and the quality of the knowledge that's being sold to them. I know I did, when I was much younger.

The accusation that gets leveled at boards like this (and my view in particular) is that it's dogmatic and elitist.

I get it. You can get away with a lot of things for a while. Sometimes a long while. But if you look at the potential lifespan of a dart frog -- say 20 years or longer -- that's a long timeline for variables in a dynamic biological system to go wrong.

I believe the tipping point applies to vivariums ... you have a system and keep giving it the same inputs, but at some point you get an unexpected result. Even with perfect, restricted husbandry, I've dealt with infected eyes likely due to mechanical injury, osmotic imbalance possibly caused by the stress of a physical injury (dislocated wrist it looked like) -- non-overt bullying ... and now you want me to throw more variables in like geckos with who-knows-what in their guts and doing weird gecko things in a confined space for years with frogs doing weird frog things ... no thanks. :LOL:



We make compromises all the time because these habitats are artificial, but context and consequences are everything, so going back to false equivalencies, I don't believe the question just as easily applies.

A gecko is not a plant is not an isopod is not a leaf.

People also see mixed species exhibits in zoos but those zoos have a mandate to engage the public and represent something specific, have full-time, highly trained staff and veterinarians, and I imagine that sometimes they expect to lose animals in some of those exhibits in service of that mandate.

I believe it can be done, I just don't believe it should be done, and that belief is based on decades of observation and experience and talking to people much more knowledgeable than I am.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
110 Posts
Again I completely agree with all your comments and good advice, I know nothing about these frogs relative to most of the members on this forum, but perhaps it is a conversation barrier thing between cultures. I am not defending people who want to mix species, I simply tried to answer some specific questions obectively about the desire to have different animals in one enclosure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
565 Posts
Again I completely agree with all your comments, I know nothing about these frogs relative to most of the members on this forum, but perhaps it is a conversation barrier thing between cultures. I am not defending people who want to mix species, I simply tried to answer some specific questions obectively about the desire to have different animals in one enclosure.
Of course, no worries. I didn't think you were defending, just speculating on motivations. Cheers!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,485 Posts
A properly planted enclosure is boring. We must have more.

We must have a waterfall. We must have a drip wall. We must have a moving stream.

Single species enclosure is boring. We must have multiple colours and species.

Single animal enclosure is boring. We must have crabs and shrimp and geckoes.

All said by the new hobbyist. I wonder if they have this problem in Europe? I bet they don't - not to the 'Merican extent. We have become an entitled society where no one can say no to us or tell us what to do - what is good or bad or logical or correct.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
402 Posts
I'm genuinely surprised to see a dart frog, even a terribilis, try to eat something that large and it certainly highlights why mixing species is a bad idea.
I know several people in europe who do mix darts with very small gecko species reasonably successfully (both species breed and produce healthy offspring in the enclosure) and they have never reported anything like this but I suspect they will be as surprised by this photo as I am.
I also participate in various planted aquarium communties and I don't completely understand why attitudes to this sort of thing differ so fundamentally between aquarium and vivarium keeping. In fishkeeping it's not remotely controversial to keep a 'community tank' of species from all round the world in which smaller species will produce young that are opportunistically consumed by larger species within the tank.
People get a little hysterical about this topic sometimes and I don't want to step on that landmine so again, I don't mix species and I don't advocate for mixing species, but in principle why is a baby gecko being eaten by a frog regarded as being so much more offensive than a baby guppy or corydoras being eaten by a larger fish or an aggressive shrimp?
Do the hobbies attract fundamentally different personalities? or is this a cultural thing where because we consume so much fish and at such detriment to the marine environment that it becomes difficult or impossible to value their lives in the same way? Would someone from a culture where they routinely eat frogs and lizards see any problem here other than that the terribilis has clearly bitten off more than it can chew? Plenty of people breed mourning geckos solely as a feeder for specialist snakes, I'm not attempting to low key rationalise mixing species in a vivarium, I'm just genuinely interested in what underpins these values. I'm sure many of you eat plenty of meat and any sincere investigation will reveal that most of the animals you consume suffer far more than that gecko before they die.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
402 Posts
I wonder if they have this problem in Europe? I bet they don't - not to the 'Merican extent.
In my experience this is not the case, in fact mixing species and particularly dart frogs and small geckos is much more common in europe and far less frowned upon. Particularly continental europe where English isn't the native language. If anything I think we probably exported the concept to america.
 
1 - 20 of 72 Posts
Top