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Discussion Starter #1
Whoa! I think we're missing the point. First off, these are froglets, right? Providing them with the nutrition they need for growth is important especially since the diet we feed is not as balanced or should I say diverse as they would find naturally. Secondly, I don't think he is planning on have his froglets swim in a sea of FFs. So feeding froglets every other day will help them in the long run? Uh I disagree. Adults yes, juvies, ah...no. Where to draw the line between juvies, sub-adults and adults is a better discusion as far as amount and frequency to feed. (see my other post) But in the end it all depends on the actual frog. Look at people, some get fat looking at food while others stay thin eating all of the time.
 

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It seems like the point is being missed somewhat. You don't have to wait several days between feedings (that's just what I do), but there should be times when there isn't any food available. The original post say they is always an abuncance of flies. You don't need or want that.

If you read between the lines you'll find the point of not giving juveniles flies every day or several times a day is to cull them - some frogs need to die. If they can't stand up to the competition they die. In the long run (and I'd say in the short run also) this will mean stronger and heathier frogs for us all. If we nurse along every standard and sub-standard froglet were shooting ourselves in the foot. As was said in Jurassic Park - sure we can do it, but should we do it? How many frogs would you think make it to adults in the wild - 5 out of 100? In our terrariums its the exact opposite 95 out of 100 make it and reproduce. In the long run this is going to hurt us, especially since obtaining wc is difficult or impossible for many species and is likely to become more difficult in the future.

We need to think long run and we need to be willing to let some frogs die for the benefit of ourselves and our charges.

Best,

Chuck
 

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Discussion Starter #3
And a response from deep in right field.....
We were trying to advise this "new" I repeat "new" hobbiest the best way to feed his "pet" frogs. Not "cull them" and what's up with the "some frogs need to die" comment? :shock: He is "new" to keeping frogs so I hardly think he will mass produce a "standard and sub-standard froglet". Wow, are you really that threatened by a "new" person to the hobby? He wants to give his frogs the best shot at a healthy life not test them to see how strong they are and if they can't make it well then they were "sub-standard". Talk about coming out of right field.....man.
Uh oh I heard an 8 yr old in North Dakota just got dart frogs, I hope he "reads between the lines" and doesn't just want to enjoy and learn about his new amazing new pet.
Mike

Sorry but I couldn't resist :roll:
 
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If you read between the lines you'll find the point of not giving juveniles flies every day or several times a day is to cull them - some frogs need to die.

Interesting view, Darwinism at its finest! Most herps in the pet trade are CB, and most herpers (and froggers, I'm sure) pride themselves in their husbandry and consider a dead animal a failure. I am on Chucks side concerning sub-standard animals being allowed to breed and reintroduce their poor genes, but certain positive traits have most certainly already been introduced to the CB darts such as the ability to thrive and breed in a captive environment. My darts were also relatively expensive and it would be tough to allow a culling process. Much food for thought! Dave
 

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chuckpowell said:
We need to think long run and we need to be willing to let some frogs die for the benefit of ourselves and our charges.

Best,

Chuck
So why don't you be the first? Kill off 95% of your frogs, since obviously not all of them would have survived. Then you can talk without sounding like a hypocrite.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Dave,
Oh I agree on the introduction to poor quality animals into the pet trade is a bad idea. But, for some of us we have these frogs to enjoy and if they breed and we choose, to rear the tads it will most likely be for our own collection. If we breed them for the purpose of selling or passing them on to others then we should have proper husbandry practices in line. This will assure a good healthy stock. However, as you mentioned these frogs are expensive for one, and two, I find it hard to imagine a person "new" to the hobby (who will be happy if his/her frogs live) breed them for other people. In the future sure but you said you were "new" and wanted advice rather than a soapbox answer.
Just my 2 cents.
Mike
 

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There are two paragraphs to my last post - the first was for the first post. The other was in reply to following posts. I figured that was pretty obvious.

Why the personal attacks? If I don't tow the party line then I'm wrong and should be shunned? Come on people lets act like adults. You guys want to discuss this? I'm here.

Best,

Chuck
 

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Chuck,
I hope you don't think I'm attacking you, I certainly see the thought process behind your opinions, and I do appreciate the advice! Mike, you are correct that I don't intend to breed with the idea of selling, so I am not approaching this project as a breeder would, and while I am new to darts I am not new to herps in general. I truly am thankful for this site, the forums have already helped me a lot with this new hobby and I don't want to be the catalyst for a negative thread. Thanks again to all for their input! Dave
 

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I will say that I was a little surprised when Chuck said he only feeds his frogs twice a week but having seen his collection I can also say that his frogs were some of the healthiest frogs I have seen. I think we can only learn from what Chuck has offered in his posts.

As far as culling is concerned. I think creating competition for food in the terrarium would be a good way to cull if you were planning on keeping the frogs or giving/selling the frogs to an experienced frogger. But if you don't know where those frogs are going once they leave your hands then maybe it isn't such a great idea. For example, your perfectly culled frog may end up in the hands of someone who has never kept dart frogs before.

My guess to the number of captive born frogs that live long enough to reproduce is that it would be similar to their wild populations. I try to attend all of the reptile shows in my area and it is amazing how many dart frogs they sell. I know there are a few people on this board that also attend these shows but not enough to buy all those frogs I see. I know these frogs share the same fate as so many captive born or worse yet wild caught reptiles and amphibians.


Just my opinion,
Brad
 

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Frog breeders have elevated a new factor for the natual selection process of frogs...color/pattern. Frogs with good coloring/pattern get picked up by experienced froggers who breed them at a better rate than the 8 year olds. So, the other factors that would be higher factors for natural selection (ability to find food, toughness, etc.) are lessened. BUT, who cares? These animals are not sub-standard because they are sissy frogs! They have a new habitat/environment where the best ones for this environment win out. Who cares if your frog couldn't hack it in the wild? He still looks good, provides hours of entertainment, teaches you about PDF, and gives you something to talk about online at midnight.
 

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Come on people, lighten up. I think everyone should know that Chuck is one of the real founders of this hobby in the U.S. and he has a LOT of experience and success behind him... more than probably everyone else on this forum with only a few exceptions. I thought his post was right on the mark and if he hadn't said it, I would have.

Josh, I here what you are saying but what you are talking about is selective breeding. There have been other threads on this forum that address that and present the arguments of a lot of people who DO have a problem with this.
 

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Hi Chuck,

I am genuinely curious, how often do you feed your frogs and how much at a time? For frogs and froglets? What would you recommend for froglets and frogs?

I understand the point that you were trying to drive at and honestly its the first time I'm actually I've seen such a post with that kind of thinking -- and I think it's very good and logical. I've kept cichlids for the longest time and for easily bred species, young prolific breeders really "max" out. Either they get stunted or produce sub quality offsprings (in that they themselves get stunted as well).

But my sentiments are just that dart frogs are so delicate, or they seem to be portrayed from the discussions everywhere. Furthermore, because it is an endangered animal, I would feel bad about over doing either -- starving or overfeeding.

I've also read that darts have pretty fast metabolisms which is why they always have to be fed all the time, everyday. Is this a myth?

With my cichlids, I find it a good practice to feed sparingly and erratically -- probably feeding them about 3-5x a week with varying quantities.

regards,

bluetip
 

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Arklier - you are out of line with your comments toward Chuck. That isn't what he is suggesting. Chuck was just sharing a widely held opinion that is discussed often with advanced hobbists.

Maybe the admins should look to split this discussion up and move part of it to the advanced forum.




Arklier said:
chuckpowell said:
We need to think long run and we need to be willing to let some frogs die for the benefit of ourselves and our charges.

Best,

Chuck
So why don't you be the first? Kill off 95% of your frogs, since obviously not all of them would have survived. Then you can talk without sounding like a hypocrite.
 

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To avoid confusion I just want to say there are really two ways to look at this question. From an advanced point of view and from a beginer point of view.

My opinion is that as a beginer it is very difficult to overfeed dart frogs. This doesn't mean you can't do it but from my experience dart frogs will stop actively hunting once they have had their fill. I would also recommend to feed at least every other day.

From an advanced point of view. Read Chuck's post (5th post 1st page).
 

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melissa68 said:
Arklier - you are out of line with your comments toward Chuck. That isn't what he is suggesting. Chuck was just sharing a widely held opinion that is discussed often with advanced hobbists.

Maybe the admins should look to split this discussion up and move part of it to the advanced forum.
Was I? I don't think so. For the record, I agree that frogs don't need to be fed every day. I feed mine every other day, or every third day. So it's not the message I disagree with. It's the delivery and all the extra baggage. What about all that stuff about how 95/100 don't make it in the wild and some frogs need to die (or be culled) because people are polluting the gene pool by keeping food constantly available to froglets? I think if you polled 100 users on this board, near 100% of them would be guilty.

I also agree that this thread should be split. Don't you think all that stuff is a little out of place in a thread created by a newbie asking how much is too much to feed their first pair? Especially when there wasn't any indication that the frogs were weaklings, or even froglets.
 

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I guess I read Chuck's post differently than you did. My take on his post, is this is someone who has been keeping frogs for over 20 years, and darts just a few more years. I am very interested in what he has to say.

He is probably one of the most experienced hobbyists on this forum. He shared some thoughts based on his experiences...before he is jumped for stating a wildly heald opinion, taking an approach asking him to expain how he comes to the 95% ratio would benifit all of us!

Arklier said:
It's the delivery and all the extra baggage. What about all that stuff about how 95/100 don't make it in the wild and some frogs need to die (or be culled) because people are polluting the gene pool by keeping food constantly available to froglets? I think if you polled 100 users on this board, near 100% of them would be guilty.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I PM'd Chuck to clarify some issues and said he might be better off editing the post and starting a separate thread on the topic, but he said it was too late and it would have read very strange to edit after all of the comments. Funny but I agree with most of the comments from both sides of the fence. However, this was a new hobbiest asking a simple question and was blown out of the water by the depth of the response. Just let the thread die and move on. Just my thoughts.
"And that's all I have to say about that..." -Forrest Gump-
mike
 

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Dunner97074 said:
However, this was a new hobbiest asking a simple question and was blown out of the water by the depth of the response. Just let the thread die and move on. Just my thoughts.
"And that's all I have to say about that..." -Forrest Gump-
mike
This is what makes me very nervous about having a forum splint into "beginner" and "advanced" sections because beginners should not necessarily be fed cookie cutter answers. The question was whether darts can be overfed and the most simple answer to that question would be "yes". But that isn't a very informative answer, is it? The point of a threaded discussion is to bring in various points of view and experience and let the questioner sift through that information and form their own opinion. Just because someone is a beginner does not make them stupid. I like to give people credit for being able to form an opinion from varied responses. As I read this entire thread, I've seen a wealth of information - ALL of which is beneficial to beginner and experienced alike. The thread as a whole tells me that yes, it is possible to overfeed frogs but there is a knack to knowing how much is too much. Further, the thread suggests that for a beginner, feeding too much is better than feeding too little. I would hope that the original poster got this message but unfortunately the thread got split.

Sorry for the rant.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Brent,
Why quote my post out of context. I was merely stating that the answers given up to the point of a "breeders" view were sufficient. Ie. the comments about culling and to paraphrase, the weak must die in order to propagate a stronger frog were a little much to answer the original thread. I pm'd with Chuck several times on the matter and he agreed it probably was not the appropriate area for the response. I agree with his philosophy but did not think it was in the context of the post he thought about splitting the thread himself. About the beginner in this hobby I was merely stating that breeding the frogs was not his concern not his knowledge and furthermore I do not think I talked down to the original poster as, by quoting me, you made it out to be. Because I too can be considered new to this hobby.
Mike
If I am going to be quoted at least do it fairly in regards to the facts not assumptions of my opinion.
 

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Some comments,

1) The Philadelphia Zoo for a number of years (approaching a decade) fed their dendrobatids and mantellas, two times a week (three if they were looking for reproduction). The frogs lived for more than ten years and they were breeding auratus back in the early 1980s.

2) There are some calculations that can give you the minimal caloric needs of a frog. (ill or rapidly growing frogs can have a caloric need up to 8 times as much). Assuming we are speaking about a large froglet let us use the values for a 1 gram frog (from Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry) (I am using a figure for 25 C as this will increase metabolic need even more) is 0.02 kcal/day. A gross energy value for fruitflies (including undigestiable parts) is 5.12 kcals/gram fruit flies (from Feeding captive insectivorous animals: nutritional aspects of insects as food; 1997, Publication of the AZA Nutrtional Adisory Group Handbook).
If you work the math then a 1 gram frog at 25 C needs is 0.0039 grams of fruit flies a day to deal with the basic metabolic needs. If anyone has the mass of a fruit fly we can get the exact number of fruit flies a day. (and then multiply it by 8 to reach a good maximal caloric number).

3. Obesity is a condition that is easy to attain and hard to resolve in amphibians. Most amphibians are hard wired to feed whenever prey is available to take advantage of short term availability in the wild. This makes it easy to over feed the animals in our care. The low metabolic rate of amphibains (and reptiles) makes it very difficult to resolve obesity.


Some comments, we tend to feed a high number of food items to the frogs to maximize growth, survivorship, and increase reproductive potential. One of the limiting factors in reproduction in wild animals is the fat reserves to sustain egg formation as this is a energy intensive process. We are maximizing the egg production as a method to recover expenses otherwise what is the driving reason to pull clutches, feed heavy and provide multiple oviposition sites?

Ed
 
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