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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Im not thinking about getting some or anything, but i was wondering what the difference in care for WC vs CB darts? What precautions should be taken, etc?

Thanks,
Mark
 

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If you are looking I would find some captive born darts, you'll thank yourself. Especially if it is an expensive frog. A well cared for, well started, CB frog is always best. I've had some wild caughts and it seems like its more of a struggle to keep them healthy. With captive borns you usually know where they have been since they were born, and if they were taken care of. The way some of these frogs are imported into the country its a wonder that they survive.


1.Quarantine at least 2 months
2. Keep medications on hand
3. Place viv in low traffic area to avoid stressing the animal further
 

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Some of the long time people in the hobby don't consider a wild caught frog acclimated unless it has been in captivity for at least 6 months to a year....

Ed
 

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Whether you choose wc or cb you need to take precautions such as Quarantine, Testing and watching for signs of stress, weightloss and anything else that appears to be out of the norm.

Sure you have better chances with cb but few in this hobby sell qt tested frogs. Treat them all like they could infect the rest of your collection.

Michael
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
The first few words were "I'm not thinking about getting some or anything..." So no, I'm not looking. I was just curious. I assumed that the frog would still be poisonous for some time. This got me to thinking if it was something that could be spread about the viv and if you should be wearing arm-length gloves and whatnot to deal with it. I know about the quarentining, meds, and stress. I guess I was wondering a bit more about the husbandry/caregiving of them. If there is anything really different in terms of how you should care for them aside from extra vigalence for illness or stress.

Thanks for the responses thus far.
Mark
 

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Its kind of a double edge sword for me. You want to keep an eye on them, as to make sure they are not losing weight and eating properly. Then again you also want to leave them be as much as possible to reduce stress. Some may maintain toxicity for up to a few months in captivity....if you're like me I would probably wait a good year before removing the gloves..lol:)
 

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I would say in the best case scenario, one would be taking care of them the exact same way. Quarantining, testing, treating, etc.

The links tclipse puts above are, of course, great places to start.

Poison Beauties also makes a great point that most frogs bought, and sold, have yet to be appropriately quarantined. Nor have many ever had their fecals done, or been treated appropriately.

Lately I've come to realize there's more liars in the hobby as well, so don't take someone's word on it either!! The foot work should be done by yourself, or should be considered yet to be done at all. Unless undeniable proof is shown to prove their level of care, or they come from one of the few very trusted names in the hobby, consider starting at square 1 the most appropriate course of action. Quarantine, text, treat, etc.

Probably always the best course of action.

It's also understandable not every one can afford to pay for fecals, meds, etc. always right when they should be done. If that's the case, I would still recommend to definitely quarantine. After a basic QT period is over, understand whatever tank the frogs are being kept in one day may need to be chunked, if, when testing does become affordable, there are signs of some kind of nasties. If during that time period where their true health is unknown they generate offspring, and one decides to part with said offspring, it's only right to inform the buyer/receiver of the frogs what has or has not taken place.

If the frogs didn't come together, it's recommended to not put them together till one knows their status for sure. No matter how anxious for eggs one might be. If someone does put a pair not received together with one another anyways, before testing & treating(if necessary) has been done, please tell anyone receiving the offspring!

Pardon if I've rambled on.... :D
 

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I would say in the best case scenario, one would be taking care of them the exact same way. Quarantining, testing, treating, etc.

The links tclipse puts above are, of course, great places to start.

Poison Beauties also makes a great point that most frogs bought, and sold, have yet to be appropriately quarantined. Nor have many ever had their fecals done, or been treated appropriately.

Lately I've come to realize there's more liars in the hobby as well, so don't take someone's word on it either!! The foot work should be done by yourself, or should be considered yet to be done at all. Unless undeniable proof is shown to prove their level of care, or they come from one of the few very trusted names in the hobby, consider starting at square 1 the most appropriate course of action. Quarantine, text, treat, etc.

Probably always the best course of action.

It's also understandable not every one can afford to pay for fecals, meds, etc. always right when they should be done. If that's the case, I would still recommend to definitely quarantine. After a basic QT period is over, understand whatever tank the frogs are being kept in one day may need to be chunked, if, when testing does become affordable, there are signs of some kind of nasties. If during that time period where their true health is unknown they generate offspring, and one decides to part with said offspring, it's only right to inform the buyer/receiver of the frogs what has or has not taken place.

If the frogs didn't come together, it's recommended to not put them together till one knows their status for sure. No matter how anxious for eggs one might be. If someone does put a pair not received together with one another anyways, before testing & treating(if necessary) has been done, please tell anyone receiving the offspring!

Pardon if I've rambled on.... :D

There is a change in the attitude of a number of the vets on the cutting edge of amphibian husbandry about treating frogs when ever a fecal is positive. A lot of it can be seen in this post by Dr. Wright (one of the authors/editors of Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry) located here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...regular-treatment-parasites-4.html#post298624

Ed
 

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There is a change in the attitude of a number of the vets on the cutting edge of amphibian husbandry about treating frogs when ever a fecal is positive. A lot of it can be seen in this post by Dr. Wright (one of the authors/editors of Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry) located here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...regular-treatment-parasites-4.html#post298624

Ed
Thanks, Ed! I had visited that post a while ago, but have yet to venture through it recently, and gave it another read.

He says, and, Ed, what I believe you are pointing out, "A direct fecal is much more than just looking at 'the bad guys'. It is looking at the presence of other cells (intestinal lining, white blood cells, red blood cells), mucus, overall abundance of "the bad guys" and knowing what is normal for a particular group of amphibians. It takes many years to reach that level of knowledge..."

Which brings me to that 'Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry' is actually one of my next planned purchases coming up. Hearing recommendation of it is definitely appreciated! Not only am I aiming ot have that book soon, I'm also planning to acquire a microscope with a decent quality camera built in. That way I have the ability to have professionals with years of necessary experience, like Wright himself, take a look at what I'm seeing as well. Thus allowing me to insure the next step is the appropriate course of action, even if that step is nothing at all. Sadly having the ability to send pictures of pretty simple, straight forward exams is something some vet clinics Dr. Wright deals with lack the ability to do! As goofy as that sounds, he mentions it in the same, above linked, post. That with other things he mentions should have anyone getting fecals done at just anywhere concerned.

To wrap it up, I guess one of his final paragraphs pretty much says it all: "What tests you run depends on what your collection's overall health is and what your overall goal is with regard to morbidity/mortality and identifying underlying causes. Someone with 40 tanks must take a herd health approach while someone with 3 or 4 tanks may be more likely to take an individual pet approach. As a veterinarian, I offer what I think is best and then work from there to come up with a plan that is right for a client's particular situation. If you tell me your budget is $200 for 40 tanks, then obviously we have to pick and choose what preventive measures we can take."

So when answering the CB/WC care question the things to consider are what's normal for specific groups, how much cold hard cash one can dedicate to each tank/frog, and how we each value our own collection. The difference between what care should be given is all up to the individual with the frogs being given the care. How much knowledge they have, or their vet has, how much time and money they can or want to dedicate, and how much value they place, overall, into the hobby and their own personal practices. I guess the best answer is this then: What the most experienced/knowledgeable recommend, trickling down to what you want to invest. May somewhere in the middle some honesty, heart and sincere care for the animal lie.
 

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There is a change in the attitude of a number of the vets on the cutting edge of amphibian husbandry about treating frogs when ever a fecal is positive. A lot of it can be seen in this post by Dr. Wright (one of the authors/editors of Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry) located here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...regular-treatment-parasites-4.html#post298624

Ed
I've seen the threads, the writes and talked to the vets and heard the Dr.s Convo with a few froggers. This is what gets me, I understand the need to not push unneeded treatments as well as the risks of overuse and causing them to become less effective but I have sent in hundreds of fecals over the years and not once have I had one pop positive and treatment not be recommended. This was from numerous amphibian qualified vets including Dr. Wright. Has anyone had a vet yet tell them their frogs are positive for hookworms, lungworms, tapeworms, and that treatment isnt needed?

This is why I made sure to not mention treatments in my OP as its the one thing still debated to the death. I do see an issue with someone whos frogs continuously pop positive and treatment being held off due to bad husbandry and sterile practices but this usually means, breaking down the viv, sterilizing it and starting over while the frog is requarantined.

Make sure you qt and test your frogs before they go in that viv you worked so hard to set up. Once its infected you can treat your frogs regularly and it wont help.

Michael
 

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I, of course, have never gotten a positive for any of those and have been told not to treat.

It is always better to do at the beginning. And I, as I'm sure most others, would hate to spend 20-40 hours on a fantastic tank only to test down the line and find it has to be tossed. But if that's where things end up, it's always better than having real, needed treatments go to waste. Then it's just basically the prophylactic method.

But in short, along with Markw's original question, CB or WC, same treatment? That's what the consensus is? Things done the right way the first time and right away? That's what I'm saying, and from looking around, what I'm feeling. From those who's knowledge & experience far surpasses mine as well.
 

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Has anyone had a vet yet tell them their frogs are positive for hookworms, lungworms, tapeworms, and that treatment isnt needed?
When working at the Zoo, I've had the vets not treat frogs with a positive fecal. As for the comment about vets always recommending treatments, how many of those vets were also able to look at the frog to make a determination on the overall health of the frog versus a mailed fecal or a fecal run without the vet seeing the frog? If they don't have the animal in hand to examine, then you should expect the most conservative recommendation which would be to treat the frog for the parasites. This is one of the reasons, it can be important to cultivate a local vet.

The above list of parasites is a small list of the potential parasites that may be found in the frogs, it leaves out oxyurids as one example, (which in multiple taxa can help digest food items)...


This is why I made sure to not mention treatments in my OP as its the one thing still debated to the death. I do see an issue with someone whos frogs continuously pop positive and treatment being held off due to bad husbandry and sterile practices but this usually means, breaking down the viv, sterilizing it and starting over while the frog is requarantined.
Again, it depends on the "parasite" see above. A frog can be positive multiple times and not be treated depending on the number of worms seen in the fecals (protozoa are also very very commonly seen in very fresh fecals and are typically not treated unless they are super abundent in the fecal (and these can usually only be seen in very fresh fecals).


Make sure you qt and test your frogs before they go in that viv you worked so hard to set up. Once its infected you can treat your frogs regularly and it wont help.

Michael
Again, this depends on the parasite found in the fecal. A number of the parasites do not have a life cycle that would allow them to reinfect the frogs (example most tape worms as they require a host to ingest the eggs before being ingested by the frogs).

I am in no way not advocating that fecals and quarantine are not important and shouldn't be done to at the very least monitor the parasite levels but broad generalizations are something that should be avoided in this case as it isn't an accurate picture of the problem as it paints everything into black and white while ignoring the shades of grey. Some of the implications that can be taken from the discussion is that once a frog is "negative" it won't show up positive in the future, which isn't correct. The hobby engages in a wide variety of practices that actually increases the risks of infecting the frogs with a parasite, these include but not limited to collection and use of plants from outside, feeding of collected invertebrates (termites, isopods, meadow plankton, aphids), swapping of cuttings or plants that have been in contact with frogs, and/or access of wild invertebrates to the enclosures (if invertebrates can get out, wild ones can get into the enclosure).

In short, a negative fecal or even fecals never means that a frog is free of parasites, it only means that parasites were not found in that fecal or fecals. This is an important distinction...

Ed
 
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