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My understanding is that for "Dendrobatres tinctorius" are legal. We all know that Tumumcucmcumanque are morphs of tinctorius. So, even though we all know that this particular morph has never been legally imported to the US, it might not be illegal because it falls under the umbrella of "tinctorius." That might prevent someone from being prosecuted even though this morph in the US (and everywhere else?) undoubtedly started off smuggled. USFW (or CITES?) just doesn't go down far enough in taxonomy to specific that one morph is legal while another isn't. Far from ideal...

Mark
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Today I had a table at the Antwerp "Naturaria' expo. I had some good sales, met some new and seen some familiar faces. Realy had a blast at the fair!

An hour before the expo closed,2 guys walk up to my table and make some chat. Very funny guys, had the idea they know a lot about frogs, turns out these guys only live a 15 minute drive from my home, had some more laughs... Yall know how meeting new people get be fun. One of the guys gives me some compliments about the tumucumaque offspring and asks me if he could buy 5. Happy to help ofc. We both try to guess probable males, females etc... Deal is done. Have some more chat about pumilio and they showed me some very neat pictures of a trip they went on to find the pumilio, so I was realy glad to meet them and to have this interesting talk. Asked if I could join them to panama next time 😄

Now the expo was almost over, we packed up our stuff and went to the exit. At the exit of the convention an exo terra salemen runs up to us like his life depends on it and shout whats size shirts we have? Me and my wife told him out size and he asked if we have a minute to wait. He gives us 2 shirts of the exo terra " expedition bocas del toro". Very cool, but I did not get why we got shirts. Guess we got lucky somehow? In hindsight here is were I should yave put the pieces together...

When we came home I read some brochures I picked up at the fair and at the first page i look at I see the guy that bought the 5 tumucumaque! It turns out he is no one less than Emmanuel Van Heygen, the founder of exo terra himself! How cool is that!? Im still a litlle shocked, he and his friend realy were the nicest guys I've met all day.

I realy wanted to share this story, its not every day you get to sell some frogs to such a big name and gamechanger of our hobby!

Made my day!!
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Forgot to mention we also put up 2 frames to advertise for dendroboard at our table 🙂 I realy like this forum and wanted too make people in Belgium awere of this website and its members/community. Hope some new people sign up!

 

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So, I saw an Instagram post today that dart frog connection posted.. apparently they now have these...... guess someone is back to smuggling..
 

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In the US Tumucumaque is still not legal.

In Europe Tumucumaque is just legal because the smuggled frogs (I think they were smuggled to Sweden) were confiscated and given to "more responsible" breeders. So the offspring was legal. However it was never officially imported.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
In the US Tumucumaque is still not legal.

In Europe Tumucumaque is just legal because the smuggled frogs (I think they were smuggled to Sweden) were confiscated and given to "more responsible" breeders. So the offspring was legal. However it was never officially imported.

Yes, I know. This is already discussed in this topic. I still don't get Rob jeresey's post?
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Ooh, yes that makes more sense to me. Ty for explaining. Never heard of " the dartfrog connection " before.

I don't see why that comment has anything to do with my topic. 😄 But I don't mind.
 

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Apparently there was a large import of them into the US. Not only dfc but TC’s dart frogs. I think both of them legitimized it by a “paper trail”.

Taron:
“... they have been imported into USA multiple occasions and the USFWS has cleared them everytime.”

“...according to some hobbyists they violate the Lacey Act.”

You know who the ones coming in came from Tijl?
 

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Discussion Starter #34
You know who the ones coming in came from Tijl?

Haha, that would be super crazy! I am 100% sure I sold all my frogs to "local" fellow frog enthousiast and only in small numbers. My adult Tumucumaque pair produced +-80 juveniles last year and I still own 29 of them. It would be very strange if my offspring found a way overseas..

I want to add that I did receive more than one request to ship frogs (also Tumucumaque) overseas or sell the frogs in bulk too an exporter. But I don't want to get in to the import/export buisness since I don't have any interest in this.. I only breed (any of my frogs) for fellow frog enthousiast here in Europe. There is more than enough demand here for frogs. I also do not want to sell to bulk buyers since I value my frog's life and wellbeing over money.

I also always screen buyers before I sell to them. I ask various questions about their frog knowledge and what they plan to do with the frogs they want to buy. I refused to sell frogs more than once if I was not happy with the answers or if I found it ethicly not correct to sell certain people.

I hope most of us breeder "screen" their buyers before selling. unfortunatly I've been proven otherwise many times before since money makes people lose their ethics and values..

The most important aspect for me is that the frog's get the best life they can get in captivity and that breeding frogs reduce the demand for uncontrolled wildcaught animals. I believe breeding frogs in captivity also preserve species. For example this is one of the reasons why I am expanding my O.P.Bastimentos "red frog beach" tanks. Making sure this morph stay available in the hobby.
 

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That’s a difficult stance to find anything at fault with. I hope mentioned people are motivated enough to figure this out and do the sort of work you did for this tinctorius locality. We don’t need to have them but they deserve the dignity not to be confiscated or suffer the legality of our doings.
 

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I bought the plastic huts from dutch rana.
Okay cool ill take a look and see if i can find them or like object in the states.

Absolutely love these little guys tho. So many colors and are so vividly colored.
 
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