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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The subject below "New pics: lots of images" shows a good picture of Dendrobates pumilio 'almirante.' It sure looks alot like D. granuliferous to me. The main distinguishing character between the two is the granular skin texture of D. granuliferous. From the picture it looks like granular skin to me. The coloration is right. Anyone have an idea where almirante are coming from? Any comments?

Best,

Chuck
 

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pumilios from panama

Chuck,

Currently all the pumilios exported from Panama are coming from one exporter, the same one that exported all the auratus morphs recently.

Some people have looked for grannies along the border but no populations have been documented/disclosed.

There is also an almost solid red morph with a highly granulated back in panama but not sure where it is located. I would bet granulation is going to vary from differant populations of pumilio.

Thanks
ERic
 
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Chuck,
If you go to our website, the Pope Island pumilio morph has more granulation than others. I have noticed that when you look at some in different light, at different angles, the granulation varies. This may be my eyes but if you look at the Popa on the Brom. it will be very granulated in some shots, not so much in others.

Rich
 

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There is apparently atleast one population of granuliferus in pacific panama, not a great distance from the coata rican border, it was documented in 97 i think, i have the paper here somewhere. However the picture in question is an almirante from the other coast. I would be very surprised (but thrilled) to hear of an atlantic population of granuliferus in panama. The granulation in granuliferus is for more coarse looking and pronounced than what you see in the picture in question. I have some pics of several granuliferus from different localities in the costa rica gallery on our website if anyone wants to look for comparison.
 
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Mark if you find that paper please let me know. I would love to read it.

As for the frog pictures here is the pumilio from the other post:


And here is a picture of a granuliferus (in the wild from Mark):
 
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Ryan said:
Granuliferus(sp.) is rounder, and ruffer skin than that. Look at some close ups and you will tell.
I disagree with part of that. I would tend to say that D. granuliferus are longer and usually larger than the average D. pumilio population. There are some large populations of D. pumilio I have found, and even some very granular ones in Panama. D. granuliferus is also said to reach into (or has at one time) Panama. I have not found any there, nor heard of recent reports of them found there. This could have been a fluke that they were reported from there-- much like the report of sympatric D. pumilio and D. granuliferus (this was due to confisgated D. granuliferus released in D. pumilio range thinking they were D. pumilio). Anyway, that's just some information for you to think about. I could go on and on about the two species if anyone wants more information.
J
 
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Man, Mark beat me at typing that. He and I both have plenty of pictures of the populations we found together. Some of the more red ones are very D. pumilio like in coloration and pattern, but definitely D. granuliferus in everything else.
j
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I just looked it up (Silverstone, 1975) and the size range of the two species overlap alot: pumilio 17.5-24 mm; granuliferous 19-22 mm. According to Silverstone the only physical difference is the degree of granulation; everything else is the same or overlaps. Of course there is the locality difference, but a paper by Daly (Myers, C. W., Daly, J. W., Garraffo, H. M., Wisnieski, A. and Cover, J. F., 1995. Discovery of the Costa Rican poison frog Dendrobates granuliferus in sympatry with Dendrobates pumilio, and comments on taxonomic use of skin alkaloids. AMERICAN MUSEUM NOVITATES 3144, 1-21) several years ago documented both at the same locality.

So anyone out there know a good way to tell the two species apart? I don't.

Best,

Chuck
 

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Ben,

Ill get you that paper, you have a fax number?, if so email it to me.

Chuck,

the best way to tell granuliferus apart is as silverstone says distribution. I would say more specifically habitat, niche preferance etc. granted this doesnt help if you have frogs with sketchy or no collection locality data. grannies you will find almost exclusively in deep cut stream valleys, steep slopes, with thick leaf litter and lots of diefenbachia with which tads are raised. You can walk through miles of good looking rainforest but wont find the grannies untill you find the streams (I have done this) The streams are usually characterised with large boulders, which they take refuge between to stick out the dry season. Distribution of granuliferus is more widespread in Pacific CR than most people realize, and its variability in colour and size is not fully appreciated, some of the more northern pops get quite large, some males reach probably 27mm, maybe more, and in some of these north western pops. it appeared males were the larger sex. I guess this is kind of getting off track...The daly paper is interesting, and i think the jury is still out as whether this is an introduced pop, or a natural one. If it is indeed not introduced as the authorors speculate the occurance of granuliferus on the atlantic is far from the norm. I tend to agree with justin that it may be introduced, but the apparent remotness of the region keeps me speculating.
the call is quite different, longer cheeeeeeeeeeeps as opposed to the more rapid cheeep cheep of a pumilio. I would say size is another one and believe Silverstone erred to the small side with 19 - 22 mm, I imagine he was working with a palmar, or golfito population, which are smaller than some of the pops from the northern extremes.

so getting back to the question how do you visually tell them apart, the best way is the intense granulation, which really does surpass any granulation I have seen on any pumilio pop, they really do look look different when you see them both up close. The individule "granules" are larger on granuliferus. Ryan says they ae rounder, and justin says longer, I would say they are more robust, or stocky, which may sound strange now, but if you ever get the oppurtunity to see both of them side by side, or spend enough time with either of them the difference will be clear. but again as you suggest it can be difficult to go on appearance alone, whcih bring us to the importance of locality data, and keeping track of lineages and all that fun stuff.

I dont belive i actully clarified anything, hopefully didnt add to the confusion, but granuliferus is such a fantastic frog it brough me out of lurking.
 

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grannie vs. pummie

Granulation is definately the easiest way to tell these guys apart from the ones I've seen in the hobby, as the grannies have a more.. dare i say it... warty look to them (think bombina here). These will show up in any pic. The granulation in pumilios doesn't always show in pics like implied by Rich.

If you think about it, these guys are pretty closely related, so it kinda makes sense that some pummies show granulation thats visible. I've had, at one time or another, around 6 or so morphs of pumilio in my care. Two showed noticable amounts of granualtion, while the rest were nice and smooth. I wonder if these populations might be closer related to grannies? Pure speculation on that one.

Aren't grannies also more seasonal breeders than pumilio?
 
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I dont want to seem ignorent but what causes the granulation? It sort of resembles toads with the bumpy skin, that excrete the harmfull goo as a defensive measure.
 
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Re: grannie vs. pummie

KeroKero said:
I wonder if these populations might be closer related to grannies? Pure speculation on that one.

Aren't grannies also more seasonal breeders than pumilio?
The more I've observed the two in the field, the less and less I think they are closely very closely related. I think they definitely have a lot of similar characteristics, but they also behave very differently as well. D. granuliferus are strongly seasonal breeders-- mainly due to climactic constraints. It gets very hot and very dry places where they are found in the dry season. Where D. pumilio live there are no real dry seasons that would interrupt breeding. Population densities and the areas that a population take up are also very different. I hate to tell the same information I give in lectures for those of you who have already heard it once or even twice. In any event, I think D. pumilio and D. granuliferus may have split further back in time than I had originally thought.
j
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
So when do you propose they two species were separated Justin? And what have others proposed?

I've studied the fossil record of mollusks in the area for some work I did on the ancestral Gulf of California and the sea way that connected the Caribbean to the eastern Pacific shallowed and probably ceased by the late Pliocene. That's based on planktonic foraminiferal studies which generally inhabit deeper water, so there could have been a shallow sea way more recently. I can't remember what the mammal people say about the interchange from North to South and South to North America, but I think it was at about the same time. I figured the frogs would have separated from a common ancestor as the mountains grew and that would have begun about the same time - late Pliocene.

So what's your thoughts?

Best,

Chuck
 
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With all the talk lately of imitator, variabilis, vents, and amazonicus breeding or cross breed, does anyone know if pumilio and granuliferus can cross breed? I know they are both egg feeders and most likely can, but the recent discussion on frognet had me wondering if any studies have been done? With Rainer doing studies with imitator and variabilis hybrids and finding out the froglets are "messed up", it had this boy thinking.
 
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