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One thing is for sure and that is that throwing big numbers around does not impress hobbyists. We are not interested in knowing that you guys are selling to big chains and many more hobbyists who are not active on forums who may not know the proper care of the frogs. Most of those who read the thread, including me, actually shutter at the fact that you are distributing so many frogs. Most hobbyists are interested in the smaller breeders who are usually more punctual in the care of the frogs. It seems like everyday our standards are dropping more and more in this community.
I really don't get this criticism? All they are doing is filling demand, a demand that is going to exist and be filled by frogs from their facility, others, or imports. Also, I kept frogs for many years very competently without having much interest in joining a forum, and it's rather silly assuming that someone would simply lack knowledge due to not being present on them, or magically gain it when a member
 

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I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor, but I would not feel comfortable ordering from your site.

From the silly frog names, the strange age labels, the lack of information, to the fact that you even thought to trademark the word, "safe."

I doubt very seriously that I'm your target market anyway.. But these things make me nervous. Seeing the word, "bicolor" on a drop down menu does not provide enough background for me to make an informed decision about what I am actually buying.

I do hope that you can find a place in the hobby and provide some nice animals for people to enjoy. However, I think a little more information and background would be welcomed.
 

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This sounds really cool Dillon/Dillon's dad. I wish I could get something like that going with my family lol. I have a couple of suggestions, and that's all that they are...suggestions. If you're a family owned and operated company, why not emphasize that on your site and have a picture of the whole gang together hanging out in the frog room? There's also a lot of do's and don'ts with lots of frogs in regards to the location of the population and even the import years. Your website would look more attractive if you showed pictures of your actual breeding pairs and also mentioned any lineage (SR fall 2012, or UE for example). If you don't mind me asking, who did you get all of your frogs from to start up your operation? Starting up a new endeavor like this can be risky, and absolute clear transparency is going to give you guys the best chance of success in my opinion. How often do you guys have fecal samples tested on your frogs? A lot of people QT their new frogs no matter who they get them from to prevent possibly infecting their entire collection and all it takes is for one bad fecal result to come in from the vet and then you receive 1 negative feedback which can be read by many many people who will instead just buy from the established and reputable companies who have been around for a long time. I wish you guys the best of luck and would really like to see some more pictures on the website. Just keep in mind that you can do 99 good things for someone, but if you do 1 bad thing, that's what they will remember.
 

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Hey, thanks for the inquiry and comments. I can assure you quality is top on our list, and there are no gimmicks. Come visit our facility. We can give you a private tour. On the issues you raise, we did a pre-market study on dart frogs and why they are not perceived as a retail pet assuming supply issues could be overcome. In fact, last Tuesday we met with the owner of a five store chain ($5M annually) to carry our frogs. They saw this as the ink jet printer and ink model. Frogs and flies are profitable. This was our second meeting with a third scheduled for this coming Tuesday. Our marketing study and theirs gave the same result. The overwhelming number one response as to why people who knew what a dart frog is, and a surprising many do not, was they are "poisonous". On this basis, from a marketing standpoint, is "poison" only part of the name for them or a description of them? Sure, we in the hobby know the answer, but most others do not. In the wild, poison is probably merely a description, but even the hobby sells wild caught frogs. The retail customer, who is not a frogger, as our marketing people tell us, will not buy dart frogs unless they are harmless, and we as a hobby have not done a great job getting the message out there making the distinction (wild caught versus captive bred). SAFE, for us means ONLY captive bred. For the sake of completeness, we are told trademarks designate the source of the goods and by definition CANNOT be descriptive. Of course, ANYONE could use the word safe in a descriptive sense at any time, for example, safe dart frogs, dart frogs are safe....and we wish the hobby would champion this message better for all of us. OUR TRADEMARK WILL NEVER EXCLUDE ANYBODY FROM USING THE WORD SAFE DESCRIPTIVELY. Our trademark is powerful for retail consumer confidence for captive breeding as PETS. We hope everyone looks at these as the terrific pets they are. BTW, the SAFE trademark is very much favored by retailers who sell dart frogs so we like it. We are thrilled you brought this issue up, many thanks and good eye!!! Further, for the fellow breeder, we are planning to offer free licenses to USE the SAFE trademark if they themselves ever retail only captive bred dart frogs, but since it (the trademark SAFE) is a designation of source and we own the mark, the lawyers tell us, it is us who need to make sure the other user's quality is up to snuff. If not, we could be injured by their poor products, while ours are top notch. Most all of us here on the boards are quality breeders, but some are not. This is an unfortunate fact. Have a great day and if you need some excellent quality safe dart frogs we sell under the SAFE brand to mean captive bred and nothing wild caught, let us know. For you, we will even hand pick them by the traits you specify! Have a great day!
Thank you for the clarifications. I see you've also posted some pics of your frogroom and made some adjustments to your website. It's good to see that you are responsive to the concerns of those in the hobby. Best of luck to you and your family in this endeavor.
 
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Looks good. My only question is how do you access you top opening tanks that are on the top shelf? I guess a little brother would come in handy there, haha.
 

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Nice pics of your operation, its great that you are running a family operation, plus getting rid of the strange names is a big plus!!
 

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I'm still seeing the names on there so not sure which you guys are referring to that were dropped. Cobalts still called Aurora, etc. I seen the pictures too. All I can say is congratulations. You went from not knowing how to morph a Leuc tad less than two years ago(per your previous posts) to apparently one of the biggest breeders there is in the US.... bravo? That is a big jump. Looks like you have your hands full though, so good luck on your endeavors
 

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I'm still seeing the names on there so not sure which you guys are referring to that were dropped. Cobalts still called Aurora, etc. I seen the pictures too. All I can say is congratulations. You went from not knowing how to morph a Leuc tad less than two years ago(per your previous posts) to apparently one of the biggest breeders there is in the US.... bravo? That is a big jump. Looks like you have your hands full though, so good luck on your endeavors
I see the changes... They are all named like Powder blue, cobalts, etc. All the other names have been dropped.
 

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I'm still seeing the names on there so not sure which you guys are referring to that were dropped. Cobalts still called Aurora, etc. I seen the pictures too. All I can say is congratulations. You went from not knowing how to morph a Leuc tad less than two years ago(per your previous posts) to apparently one of the biggest breeders there is in the US.... bravo? That is a big jump. Looks like you have your hands full though, so good luck on your endeavors
contrary to popular opinion, dart frogs are not the most complicated animals to keep, and for the more common species, seemingly breed (quite the opposite since I go out of my way not to breed and still get tads and eggs). So 2 years for someone eager to learn and willing to apply themselves doesn't seem unreasonable. After all, success is built on taking risks and applying yourself.

Honestly, the most difficult part seems to be keeping the environment within proper limits. Which for some people, is no more difficult than plugging in an AC unit
 

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After browsing the website some more, I'm impressed with the variety of frogs you keep. At first I only saw leucs and tincs, but now I see you also have many auratus, bicolor, and vittatus!

I have a few more suggestions though. Instead of using the brick design on your site, maybe go with a more natural appearance. Maybe some of the frogs you offer and their natural habitat instead. It would add greatly to the visual appeal to your site;)

You guys have my dream job...
 

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The overwhelming number one response as to why people who knew what a dart frog is, and a surprising many do not, was they are "poisonous". On this basis, from a marketing standpoint, is "poison" only part of the name for them or a description of them? Sure, we in the hobby know the answer, but most others do not. In the wild, poison is probably merely a description, but even the hobby sells wild caught frogs. The retail customer, who is not a frogger, as our marketing people tell us, will not buy dart frogs unless they are harmless, and we as a hobby have not done a great job getting the message out there making the distinction (wild caught versus captive bred). SAFE, for us means ONLY captive bred.
While captive bred frogs may lack the alkaloids... it does not in any way mean that the frog is totally non-toxic. Frogs actively secrete a wide variety of peptides that can cause significant symptoms. Your asking for a major lawsuit by advertising them in that manner.


but since it (the trademark SAFE) is a designation of source and we own the mark, the lawyers tell us, it is us who need to make sure the other user's quality is up to snuff. !
So did these same lawyers tell you that the term "One Hop" is already trademarked (in 2009)?

Is there any reason in particular that none of your trademarked terms show up in a search of the US Trademark and Patent Database?

Some comments

Ed
 

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I know they are not that difficult to keep and breed.... well most tinc morphs that is. I have been doing this since 1997, with the exception of a about a 5 year break when we had our first daughter. And I never said it couldn't be done. That is just a big leap is all I was saying. I personally have not seen 2000 frogs at one place at any given time, with the most being at Sean Stewart's, but by no means does that say it is not possible. And it does still have the names, but not on all of the links. It seems only for Cobalts, so maybe that was just missed. But it does specifically say, and I quote "These are adult Cobalt frogs we call refer to under the trademark AURORA. Our Cobalt frogs are very bright, hence the reason we wanted a new name." Nothing like renaming a locale because it is bright.
 

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Good points Ed. I know nothing when it comes to trademarks and patents and such, but I do know my animals! Labeling any animal as safe is asking for a lawsuit at some point or another. Could you say a puppy is safe? In reality, no. It could scratch you. This is a minor example and it would be a stupid thing to get a lawsuit for, but hopefully you get my point.
 

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I know they are not that difficult to keep and breed.... well most tinc morphs that is. I have been doing this since 1997, with the exception of a about a 5 year break when we had our first daughter. And I never said it couldn't be done. That is just a big leap is all I was saying. I personally have not seen 2000 frogs at one place at any given time, with the most being at Sean Stewart's, but by no means does that say it is not possible. And it does still have the names, but not on all of the links. It seems only for Cobalts, so maybe that was just missed. But it does specifically say, and I quote "These are adult Cobalt frogs we call refer to under the trademark AURORA. Our Cobalt frogs are very bright, hence the reason we wanted a new name." Nothing like renaming a locale because it is bright.

Yeah, i'm not going to defend the naming. I was just more commenting on someone "learning" to breed some of the more common frogs in two years (seems we could add leucs, auratus and some of the imis to that list, from my personal experience). For me, I have much more difficulty in getting them not to breed.

As for the leap, I figure a breeder like this has the potential to put negative pressure on imports, both legal and illicit. So I'm not going to fault anyone for trying it if they're producing quality animals
 

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Sean Stewert is the guy in Maryland that also has a pretty active breeding program with Chondros, right? Does he even work with the more common species? I always thought of him as more of a specialty breeder focusing on rarer and harder to find morphs
 
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