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Just a couple of questions and comments. How long do you expect the muffin fan to be on when it is used to turn the air over? In the systems I have seen not only is it only on for a few minutes (just long enough to turn over the air) but it is usually set to a rheostat and the rate of fan's output is decreased. This way the rate of turn over controlled. If you think tarantulas are sensitive to drying out amphibians in general are far more sensitive so your argument about this being overkill is a little specious.

In moist or wet terraria there is some need to turn over for oxygen as there are anecdotal incidences of carbon dioxide buildup from the bacterial action in the substrates of the enclosures and the respiration of the plants at night.

You state that a muffin fan needs a power source and the manner in which you state it seems to make it a problem but then doesn't any airpump need a power source? See above for my comments on controlling the air flow from the fan.

Just a comment on the manner in which you handled the discussion. You came onto the board and posted a question looking for a specific answer. When you did not get the answer youwanted you then went on the attack on topics that were not part of the thread until you made them part of the thread. When that was pointed out you then continued to argue your point in a manner that was gives the appearence that you were trying to bring people around to your point of view. You could have saved everyone a lot of aggrevation by simply saying thank you for the advice but I think I'll try it anyway as opposed to trying to show us all how well researched you are with regards to the specific animals.

Ed
 
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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
A muffin fan needs a DC power source. Those run about 10 bucks. Then you have your muffin fan that runs between 15-25. Add in your 20 dollar digital timer and you've got a 45 dollar add on. This is more than a new enclosure. I use a muffin fan on my tarantula cabinet to turn the air over in there. I run it for 5 minutes every four hours. The aquarium pump is constantly drawing in air. As this air moves in old air moves out. Granted it is slow, but if it's constant combined with the O2 provided from the plants and moss I would think it should do a decent job.
 
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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
Totally unrelated to the discussion, but are these chameleons (Brookesia and Rhampholeon bred often or commonly available? I remember reading an article on them on the vivaria site a few years ago, but never really heard much about them until this discussion again.
j
 

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Glad I found this threwad now, and not early, because I've been known to get into arguments over mixing species.

Just one question for all of the "animal mixers":

Why would you mix/want to mix animals together in the same tank?

The only reasons I can see are:
1) for your enjoyment (which means putting your needs before the animal's)
2)you don't have enough tnaks for all of your animals and want to join (you shouldn't have so many animals if can't provide terrariums for each
3) you HEARD it works and want to try it yourself, to prove others wrong. (using the animals to prove a point in your favor is not right)

I think that all species mixing is not right. No reason to do it.
 
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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
Ok, it seems to me the arguments are you simply trying to clear your conscience in advance of anything negative that might happen as a result of what you want to attempt. If you really cared about the animals and you really want a nice display to look at with them, then they should be kept separate. You seem to be all about spending all that money on the frogs, but when buying extra equipment comes into play you complain it costs too much.
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A muffin fan needs a DC power source. Those run about 10 bucks. Then you have your muffin fan that runs between 15-25. Add in your 20 dollar digital timer and you've got a 45 dollar add on. This is more than a new enclosure.
Most people on this forum spend hundreds of dollars to get everything set up just the way they want it, from $30.00 for a peice of wood to that custom made vivarium that costs around $150.00 to the misting system that runs about $70.00. They know that if you do it right that you'll never have to do it again, and that their frogs will live a long life in the vivarium. They don't complain about a fan costing $25.00, that's the least of their costs involved.
I really feel that you are just arguing to get the answers you want so that when it does happen you can blame someone else for giving you faulty advice.
I've seen that tactic used so many times and nearly every time the person has come back whining when their animal died due to improper care or mixing or whatever hair brained scheme they wanted to try.
 

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Derek
Belief statements are belief statements and your whole post is predicated on a belief statement as a prelude to an argument.
Until/unless you are willing to accept other arguments, then a belief statement precludes reaching an agreement or consensus.

All three of your bullet points are predicated on the assumption that all mixing is detrimental to the animals involved. This is an incorrect assumption.
It is possible to choose animals within correct zoogeograhic boundries that do not place negative stressors upon one another.
For example at work I have had Bombina in with Cynops cyanureus for the last 9 years. I still have all of the original adults. Another example is that I had auratus in with Eyelash vipers (B. schlegeli) for more than 10 years at one point without losing an auratus. This has been done at other institutions for longer periods of time.

Ed
 

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Regarding the muffin fan, if you had specified that you were too cheap to use a muffing fan set-up then there would have been a lot less recommendations for its use.

I am done with discussing the troll's issues as I think I made my point in the last stament where I addressed his behavior.

Ed
 

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Ed said:
For example at work I have had Bombina in with Cynops cyanureus for the last 9 years. I still have all of the original adults. Another example is that I had auratus in with Eyelash vipers (B. schlegeli) for more than 10 years at one point without losing an auratus. This has been done at other institutions for longer periods of time.

Ed
Can you provide your reasoning behind doing this?
 
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Discussion Starter · #49 ·
LOL @ too cheap. I spent nearly 200 on my vivarium and another 120 on my frogs. I was making the point that it would not be COST EFFICIENT to setup a muffin fan! I just bought an enclosure for the chameleons for 15 bucks. It's screen on two of the sides and on the top and glass on the other two sides and the bottom. This should be great for holding humidity and ventilation. Now I can go buy some moss, ficus, etc. etc. with the other 35 that it would have cost me to put in a muffin fan! Plus I'll have two awesome looking enclosures.

I'll also be purchasing a group of cintronellas and setting up another viv for them. Not to mention my on going obsession with tarantulas. If you knew anything about me you would know I am far from cheap when it comes to my animals. I did not need to install a muffin fan on my tarantula cabinet or a heating element/thermostat. That ran me an extra 75 bucks where as most keepers keep their animals at room temps with air holes for ventilation.
 

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They are exhibits covering various biogeographical zones.

Another example, Pseduobranchus a. axantha, Notopthalmus v. louisianensis and Hyla squirella. That one was only up for a mere six years before we decided to go in a different direction.

Is that sufficient justification........

You have yet to demonstrate any reasonable problem with the idea of well thought out zoogeographically correct multispecies exhibits other than your belief statements from the original post yet you ask me to justfy why I had multiple species enclosures.


Ed
 

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Not trying to start an argument, just trying to see the other side of the story.

About your multi species tanks. Why would you do it? To prove that they can be kept in same tank? People know that they are in the same area in the wild. In the wild, the area is much larger than any terrarium that can be created. Even a large zoo exhibit cannot compare to the actual space that an animal occupies in it's niche. By craming the animals together in smaller habitats, it will stress the animals out. They aren't going to go hug another species, they will stay away from them, therefore limiting their already limited space int he terrarium.

As far as the mix with the newt, dwarf siren, and tree frog, that's possible. People mix darts with tetras, that's comparable to tree frog and siren. They occupy different areas of the terrarium. But animals that occupy the same area shouldn't be mixed in my opinion.

I'm listening to your side of the mixing issue, but have not heard anythoing as to why it makes sense. If it's not broke, don't fix it. If you don't HAVE to mix them, then why?

Just my two cents.
 
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Discussion Starter · #53 ·
I mix fruitflys with my dart frogs regularly I find it to be extremely beneficial (well for the frogs). I also mix springtails and wood lice, tends to be beneficial for the frogs and the vivarium.

-Tad
 

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The answer for why was in my last response
snip "They are exhibits covering various biogeographical zones."

There is nothing about having to prove anything in the design and maintence of the exhibits.

I hate to correct an impression in your last post but the average member of the public does not know the animals live in the same regions/areas much less what the animals are.

Area inhabited/area needed (territorial, feeding etc) and area actually used are very different in wild and captive situations.
Let us use a red back salamander which is a highly territorial salamander and readily defends both resources and territory as an example. In the wild this salamander may live with a member of the opposite sex in an area that ranges greater than a square meter. However this highly territorial species can be readily maintained for years in a plastic shoebox. In fact if there are suitable hides placed on opposite ends of the shoebox, two pairs will happily live in these conditons for a decade or more.
When arguing spatial requirements, comparisions between wild and captive animals are usually invalid as they fail to take into account that the amount of space "needed to support" the animal is less in captivity as the resource requirements are being met (there are some exceptions but this is much more of a rule than most people believe). Breeding sites, food availablilty and even mates are all maintained at artificial densities decreasing the spatial usages of the animal. The species in question usually only needs that much space in the wild to meet its minimal requirements, in captivity as these needs are met the amount of space required decreases.
When you say cramming the animals into a smaller space will stress them out, are you still referring to amphibians and what size space are you referring to? I would say that this statement is correct with respect to say placing 20 RETFs in a 1 gallon jar, I would say that this is not correct when referring to placing 20 RETFs in 55 gallon tank. Both spaces are significantly less than the "range" occupied by one RETF in the wild, yet in the second example, the frogs will not only breed (which is not always good indicator of a successful set-up) but will live to a maximal lifespan (assuming good husbandry practices are followed).

snip " If it's not broke, don't fix it."
I can say the same thing with regard to multispecies exhibits. If it works then why not?



Ed
 

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Take a human being. We live in a large area, but lets just say our city. This will be like the territory of your salamander. The salamander is territorial over it's area, like people are of their house. Most of us live with a member of the opposite sex as well. A person can live in a single room for their whole life. Even with a partner and another pair. Are they comfortable? Depends. Now throw in another species. I'm not sure of a god example of a species that's not really harmful, but about same size. How about a small cow? Can you live with a cow? Sure. Would you like living with a cow? Depending on the person, but majority no. Why wouldn't you? You would occupy same space (here in kansas anyways), and you are around same size, both mammals, etc. See what I'm trying to say?

20 red-eyed treefrogs in a 55 gallon is ridiculous. That's cramped space.

snip " If it's not broke, don't fix it."
I can say the same thing with regard to multispecies exhibits. If it works then why not?
How did someobdy come about finding that 2 or more animals can be placed with each other? Experimentation. The animal's well being is sacrificed to see if it can live with another animal? Humans and tigers, nope that doesn't work, so let's try....bears. Nope, doesn't work. And finally the cow, yep it works, they must be able to live together, and be just fine...
 
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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
this thread is getting to be a little ridiculous, and kinda reminds me of the stuff that happens on kingsnake.

anyways, my personal opinion is that mixing species is for the most part, needless. In a worse case scenario, the species kill each other (whether directly, through stress, or differing requirements). and in a best case scenario they both live long lives, continue to breed etc. The best case scenario can be achieved without mixing two species, so what is the point? I believe this thread was started because the person who started it is only allowed to have two tanks in his house. In that case, I believe that it is best to err on the side of caution, and not sacrifice animal's comfort and health just to get another species of pet.

I agree that a mixed species would be very cool, but there are just too many possible problems for it to be plausible, unless one has the resources to create a large well planted tank that can suit the specific needs of every inhabitant.
 

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Actually with the Plethodon cinereus, this is observed in the wild as resources become more abundent territorial requirements shrink (and if the resources are sufficient the space defended becomes the sheltering rock). This reduction in spatial requirements applies equally among all of the amphibian models I am aware of.. Do you know of any exceptions to the rule in amphibians?

The mammalian example you cited is inappropriate as you predicate it based on your feelings. Anthropomorphism have no place in this discussion.
For a person to be the same general size of a cow they must mass between 2.5 and 5 times as much on average to be equivalent. Again, the spatial requirements from your example are extreme to the point where they have no value in the argument.

On what do you base 20 RETFs in 55 gallon is ridiculous? Is there some nebulous inch of frog per gallon of tank rule like that which has been passed around for years in the pet trade (according to that rule, a ten inch oscar requires the same amount of space 10 one inch tetras require. Which produces more waste? ) This is a value judgement without support.

You are aware that a 55 gallon tank (48 x 12 x 18) yields a little over 10,000 cubic inches of space right? This is about 500 cubic inches per frog.... But wait you say, not all of that space has things the frogs can use.
Okays lets look at the total surface area excluding the bottom for the frogs this giuves us a total of 2160 square inches for the frogs to use. Which divided among 20 frogs gives each frog its own 108 square inches to use as it sees fit. (This does not take into account the bottom nor any decorations/plants which will significantly increase the available surface area).
I think when the amount of space provided by a 55 gallon tank is looked at objectively, the numbers indicate that it is more than sufficient for 20 RETFs.

How do you know that the animal's well being was sacrificed? If the study was based on territorial requirements and the animals were seperated when actual aggression occured then how was the animal's well being sacrificed?
Once again, you use inappropriate examples. Do you know of any amphibian that has the same territorial requirements as humans, tigers and bears? Do you have any citations to back that analogy up? If not please stick to the topic at hand.

You have not adequately addressed any of my points in the previous post as you have strayed into tangential areas. Can you address the disparity in spatial resource needs between captive and wild animals?
On a final note you keep throwing around the following statment "the animal's well being". This is an inexact statement, please define it. I have referred to negative stressors for which the definition can be looked up (Try The Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles for a good definition).

Ed
 

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Bottom line: Mixing species isn't right. It's unecessary and should be avoided. If you wish to continue this, reply to the PM.

As far the the 55 gallon aquaroium goes, yes I disagree. I don't care about inches. Inches don't matter. I've spent years on treefrog forums and have kept them for years. A pair or trio of red-eyes does well in a 20 gallon tank. Therefore 4-6 in a 40, and around 7-9 in a 55 gallon. You are saying that each frog gets 2.75 gallons each. That's ridiculous. Look at what everyone recomends for adult dart frogs. 5 gallons eahc. Red-eyes are atleast double in size and twice as active. Putting that many frogs in a tank that size is something that I'd expect from someone jsut starting out in frog keeping to imagine. Not a person who works at a zoo.
 
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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
kinetic said:
I believe this thread was started because the person who started it is only allowed to have two tanks in his house. In that case, I believe that it is best to err on the side of caution, and not sacrifice animal's comfort and health just to get another species of pet.



Uh I have two adult columbian red tail boas, 30 tarantulas, a pair of sandfire bearded dragons, a green wing macaw, two colonies of roaches, black widows, love birds, parrotlets, a 14" sulcatta tortoise a siberian husky a 120 gallon aqurarium and the list goes on. This is only a list of my pets and does not include my parents pets. Did you miss the part about me now having bought a seperate tank for the chameleons?
 
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