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Some types of parasites are species specific however many parasites can infect and live quite well in hosts other than the targeted host. (This can occur in humans as well which is why personal hygiene is pretty important whern working around herps). When a parasite infects the wrong host there are a several possible outcomes (I'm using human examples here as its easier for me to think of them when I first wake up).
1) the parasite dies in the larval stages (example larval migrans in humans, the parasite cannot complete the infection because it lacks the enzyme necessary to complete pentration of the tissues)
2) it infects the wrong host, completed development but cannot reproduce (reptile/amphibian host specific pentastomids infecting in humans)
3) the parasite encysts in the body tissues in the non-targeted host and waits for the new host to die/be consumed by a suitable host (see sparganosis in humans).
4) the parasite completes its life cycle in the new host (example cat tapeworms in people).

Ed
 
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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Ohh. Then I would probably just keep my dendrobates in the 75 gallon and keep the Chamelions in the 20 gallon. That is, if i get chamelions.
Well, ill think about it. Thanks for the help.
 

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troymcclure said:
I have an airpump going into my vivarium to provide air for my ephiphytes and chameleons. I am also wondering how many of these parasites are species specific and how many have been known to be transimitted to dart frogs?
An air pump, if it is an aquarium air pump won't do the trick for ventelation for the chameleons. Although many people keep leaf chameleons in aquariums with moderate levels of success they do need a lot of ventelation. They really should be kept in screen cages.
You might be ok with a fan adding ventelation, but this will most likely cause humidity problems.
 

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This may not be the popular opinion of the forum, but I think R. brevicaudatus is a good canidate to mix with dart frogs in a large vivarium.

Size wise, they should be compatable with any of the frogs from the Tinctorius group.

Their temperature range is from 74 to 82, so you could meet the needs of both the frogs and the Stump Tail Chameleons if you kept the vivarium between 72 to 78.

And unlike most Chameleons, R. brevicaudatus require high humidity - 80 to 100%. Stump Tail Chameleons will thrive in a vivarium set up.

I think to be successful you would need a large vivarium and would have to provide specific niches for the Chameleons. They would, also, need some UV lighting. I would provide the chameleons with one or more bonsi ficus trees. For the most part they will occupy the trees, except for feeding and egg laying.

So to answer your question, yes, I believe that you can succesfully house R. brevicaudatus and D. azureus together. As for getting adults or juvinile frogs, I would base that decision on the current size of your chameleons.

My biggest concern would be the parasite load. I have considered this combination as well, but have been unable to locate good captive bred Stump Tails.

Just my opinion.
Tim
 
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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Thanks Tim. That solves my problim, cause I have Cobalt tincs. Would a 50 gallon suffice for the chamelions?

Paul
 

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Did you miss the 20 gallon part of the equation? How about the proper ventelation within a high humidity environment?

You say Most chameleons don't need a high humidity environment. This is a pretty bold statement. If I were to say most, it would without a doubt be that most need high humidity. There are a number of species that don't, some from lower elevations in Africa, and those in europe, however most species require very high humidity. We see more of the low humidity species in the hobby, why? They are easier to maintain for the most part.

When you look at care sheets it sounds very doable, but in reality your just not very likely to succeed.
 
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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Well, some people know what there doing. I dont know what you mean 20 gallon equation. I cant have the 20 gallon now cause i have 2 tanks, 75 and 50, and i cant have 3 tanks, at least not in the house. Ohh, will the stump tail chamelions eat fruitflies, or will i have to supplement the chamelions with other food sources?
Paul
 

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Tim,

From my personal experience, I must disagree with you humidity requirements for brevicaudata. It is possible that in the wild they humidity reaches 80-100% but we are talking about keeping them in glass fish tanks. I guarantee that if these humidity levels are kept your chameleons will die within a very short time. It is just not possible to keep this high level of humidity and proper ventilation in an indoor enclosure. Maybe if you live in Florida and have screened in enclosures that are out door, these levels of humidity could be reached and your chameleons would thrive.


Paul,

You can believe whomever you want. These chameleons are really cheep so if you kill off a few, I guess you can just buy some more. I personally believe that all animals that I care for should be kept under optimal conditions and I think that you would be wise to listen to those of us who have been down the path that you are planning to take. These are being taken from the wild and possibly being over collected. Who knows how long these populations can sustain losing this number of animals to the pet trade and to me every animal is priceless. Just think about what you are really trying to accomplish and if it is really worth risking the health of your animals because you think that it would look cool to keep two species form different ecosystems together, then by all means go right ahead.

Best regards,
Blake
 
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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Lots of pygmy chameleons sites will tell you that they thrive in vivariums. Also the fish pumps move more air than you think, especially the large ones that use two tubes. I know lots of tarantula keepers that use them to ventilate their arboreals and they work great. A muffin fan is waaaay overkill. Those things would replace all the air in the enclosure in a matter of seconds.
 

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The point of ventelation for chameleons is not to get them oxygen, its to prevent stagnation which causes resperatory infections. A fan is hardly overkill, your are trying to prevent stagnant pockets of air. If you don't use a screen enclosure you need overkill to prevent stagnation.

This is PRECISELY why chameleons are best kept in screen cages. You don't need fans to blow dry/fresh air in the cage. In a glass cube you DO.


I bred 15 or so species of chameleons, I've kept hundreds if not thousands of them, I have a definite knowledge of their requirements. Chameleons ARE extremely tolerant and resiliant for a time. They will act and look healthy under many circumstances, just to 'suddenly' die although the problems have existed for months. I never did, never would, and never will think about keeping ANY species of chameleon in a vivarium, it just doesn't provide enough ventelation.
Yes there are lots of sites out there that tell you that vivariums are ok, there are also a lot of sites that tell you anacondas can be kept in aquariums. In reality a half grown snake needs a bedroom, not a tank. Its easy to put up a website with little to no knowledge, and its even easier when you write a care sheet that allows you to SELL more animals.
Try talking to a breeder of that species, I'm sure there are a few out there now, ask them how they cage that animal.
 
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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
LOL, I've read many brookesia sites from hobbyists who do NOT sell their animals! They all agree that they can be kept in vivariums. These people have been keeping them for years. Get off of your high horse man. I do know what ventilation is for. Did you miss the part about keeping arboreal tarantula species? Do you honestly think that I thought they needed ventilation for oxygen?!? I keep over 20 species of tarantulas on moist peat moss and have NEVER had a mold problem. A muffin fan would dry the hell out of a vivarium and is MAJOR overkill. A strong aquarium air pump will move PLENTY of air.

http://www.chameleonnews.com/year2002/s ... kesia.html

tell me that is not an excellent site :roll:
 

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Since chameleons and tarantulas are so similar you obviously know MUCH MUCH MUCH more than I.

In three months when you have dead chameleons, and frogs read this thread again, you'll figure out how to do it right.
 
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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Yea so I assume you also think the chameleon news article is BS as well :roll: :roll: :roll:

I never said anything about tarantulas and chameleons being the same. I was stating that I obviously know the purpose of proper ventilation and that is not to provide oxygen.
 

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There are some OBVIOUS errors and innaccuracies in that article.

Of course its always a good idea to keep chameleons in an outdoor setup in a hot and dry environment, of course if you add a mister. :roll: :roll:

Its a snazzy site, pretty pictures, lots of words, its correct.


This thread is closed for me. You have little to no regard for your animals, I have no regard for you. You'll learn the hard way, to bad its at the expense of awesome animals.


Good day
 
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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
Like I said the aquarium pump will move a lot of air. If new air is coming in where do you think the old air is going? Chilling and becoming stagnant as the aquarium expands and blows up like a balloon???
 

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I would just like to point out that "vivarium" is a very loose term. There are people keeping corn snakes on newspaper with a stick and a bowl of water that consider the enclosure to be a vivarium.

Granted, I know zero regarding chameleons, but every picture in that article shows them climbing on open, airy vegetation.

The author suggests keeping 5 different Malagasy species with these animals. Maybe add a lemur or two while you are at it?

Rarely do I post, but using this obviously mis-informed article as a evidence of your cause does not make sense.

Regards,

David
 
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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
Chameleon news is a good site and they point out in many other articles the benefits of keeping chameleons in screen enclosures. Pygmy chameleons have different requirements than many other chameleons.
 

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Troy- I thought that we were talking about Rhampholeon. The article that you provided a link to shows the requirements for Brookesia. Since you seem to have a vast knowledge of this subject then I must assume that you are aware of the fact that all Brookesia species require an estivation period with an extreme drop humidity, as well as temperature. This would of course, make them unsuitable to house with dendrobates for an extended period of time.

If you are intent on mixing darts with chameleons, you might want to consider using a low speed computer fan for ventilation. I do believe that you will still run into problems but give it a try. I don't think that anyone here is trying to discount your intelligence or knowledge of animal husbandry. We are all just trying to help you out. If you weren’t so defensive, you might learn a thing or two.

I would suggest some small species of anolis or phelsuma for a large "vivarium", both of these would be a better alternative.

Sorry for all of the typos, I'm really tired and can't be bothered to proof read.

-Blake
 
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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
I am talking about Rhampholeon but they can generally be housed the same as Brookesia. Muffin fans move a LOT of air and also require a power supply. I have one that can be hooked directly to a lamp cord, but that is 4" and moves waaaay too much air for a vivarium. I put the air pump hoses leading right into the area that they chameleons hang out and it moves more air than you might think. I may end up moving them out of the viarium in the future, but for now I'm going to give it a try.
 

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If there's a possiblity that problems might occur (for either or both species), why risk it? Whether you're close to your animals or not, they both represent a significant monentary value. If you can afford to buy the dart frogs, is it really such a stretch to buy a seperate enclosure? It might cost a bit more, but if you're dead-set on mixing species, well, then you've got two tanks where you can mix two different sets of animals with more similar care.

Personally, coming from the "mixing is a terrible idea" in caudates, I was surprised to hear that some non-hybridizing dart species could be kept together. Given the beauty of dart frog tanks, isn't that all the mixing anyone really needs to do?
 
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