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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi, I recently set up a false bottom vivarium in a 20 gallon aquarium. I have since added a trio of R. brevicaudata. I have a 12" bonsai tree (twisted juniper) that the chameleons spend most of their time in. I found a great deal on an adult pair of azureus and was thinking about adding them. I've searched the forum and I know this in frowned upon by some people but I don't want to get into that. I have felt the grip of the chameleons and don't feel their claws could really damage the frogs if they happened to accidentally grab onto them. They also take pinheads which I think these large frogs should readily accept. I also am aware that the chameleons may be wild caught and harbor parasites, but they have been quarantined for a while so I am willing to risk it.

I am wondering what the benefits of buying adult frogs vs. froglets is? I have the choice of buying 3 froglets and a 75% chance of getting a pair then selling of the oddball or buying a sexed adult pair. I'm not sure what the better option is since the adults could be any age. I was also wondering about small frogs with the chameleons. 3/4" frogs should be bigger than the chameleons head so I dont' really see a problem with them trying to eat them. I also don't think the frogs could pull them into their mouth if they tried. I do however realize if they try they could potentially ingest some toxins.

My real question pertains mostly to whether to go with the sexed pair or the trio of froglets. I realize how opinions vary as to mixing species, but I do not intend to add anything other than these two species. I feel there is plenty of space and hiding spaces and that the chameleons spend most of their time high up in the bonsai tree. I don't want to turn this thread into a debate.
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
not to be negative but the juniper will die in a vivarium setting they need a hibernation period. sorry i know it's off topic but oh well
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Are you sure? I bought it at a place that specializes in bonsai and the lady said it would be fine. She might have only been looking to make a sale, but it was only ten bucks. My parents grow a few juniper bonsais in the yard and they have been thriving for literally decades. We live in Southern California and have few seasonal changes. I also have a friend whose dad lives in Hawaii. He keeps dozens of bonsais and makes them out of all different species of trees including juniper. Hawaii really has no winter season. Will it survive until next winter so I can sit it outdoors for about 3 months then put it back into the viviarium? I buried it's pot into the substrate so it will be possible to remove it.
 

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I frown upon keeping Rhampholeon species and dart frogs together for reasons that I've stated in other threads. If you do a search you'll probably be able to come up with the old posts. That being said, if you are going to do it I would advise keeping both species seperate for a while before hand so that you can monitor each animal to make sure it's healthy and so that you get the hang of what's involved with their care prior to keeping both species in one cage.

I think it's really up to you whether you choose to buy froglets or adult frogs. As long as you get well-started young frogs (3+ months) from a reliable source you probably won't run into any problems. Adult frogs are more expensive but will be larger and usually are more tolerant of a wide range of care conditions. Good luck,
 

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I'm going to have to agree with the above. Junipers like well drianed soil and lots of light..and very little watering. I work at a greenhouse and would never recommend using this plant in a vivarium. They are native to rocky, sand soil, in drier and arid areas. Aso for the chameleons...I worked with chameleons for over 10 years before getting into darts later on. Just because they were in quarentine does not mean that they could not harbor a bacteria, fungal, or parasite that the frogs could not fight off. You have to remember that these guys are from completely different continents and therefor have no developed complex imunity to the others pathogens. I understand your interest in mixing but you still need to keep that in mind while contimplating spending $200-$250 on an adult pair of azureus. If your still going to mix I would say go with a juvenile trio. The R. Brev will not be able to ingest them (I doubt they will try) and the price for a trio would be a bit cheaper. Just keep an eye on things. My last recommendation is to look into other bonzai's if you want to keep with the tree for the chameleon. Sheffeleria bonzais are more tolerant of water and low light conditions....see this thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3397 Good luck.
-Mike

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Based upon your comments it appears you have read some of my comments.

Heres what I don't understand. My objective when I get into a hobby like this, whether it be herps, fish, etc I try and give them the best environment possible. Obviously they are there for my enjoyment, but I want them to be in the best situation possible. I also see those out there that are ignorant of care, sometimes do stupid things, no excuse but more of an excuse than knowing better and still putting these animals in an obvious sub-par setup/situation.

Maybe your objective is completely self-serving and its just for your entertainment. I guess I just don't understand why anyone would intentially jeopardize the health of their animals.

Set up another tank, or can this mixing idea, you WILL regret doing it. It might not be right away, but problems will occur directly related to mixing these animals.
 

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Schism-

I’m sorry but there is no way of saying that this person is going to be 100% SURE that there are going to be problems and regrets down the road. I know of some very good breeders who mix day geckos (from Madagascar) with dart frogs (from Central and South America) and have had great success. In fact, many prominent dart breeders in Europe do that. I am by no means suggesting this person do it, but saying that mixing of species has been done with some success. You can try to curb someone away from doing this but being nasty about it isn’t the right way to go about it...just not professional. If this person MUST mix species..then they should take all precautions necessary. Sorry..just a friendly disagreement but I'm sure if you look even at some major institutions like the Baltimore aquarium..you'll see this goes on and I would hate to think that you are suggesting some of the best breeders "are doing it for their own entertainment" without the frogs well being in mind.

-Mike
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Yea that's why I didn't want to start this debate. I think a lot of the problem starts when people try to attach their human emotions to animals that obviously do not have the capacity to feel them. A frog is "happy" so long as it is healthy, well fed, etc. If frogs are breeding in these situations I would say that nobody is in any place to comment as to the "happiness" or how content these animals are over ones housed by themselves. The fact of the matter is these frogs have natural predators and encounter other animals in the wild. Bottom line! My frogs may experience health problems, but I for one doubt it. If they don't; I don't feel anybody can judge me. I also don't think anybody in this hobby is keeping the animals for anything other than exactly that, a hobby. Few people who keep exotic animals are rehabilitating them and releasing them. If you are "in it for the sake of the animals" go rescue a dog or volunteer the time you put into your darts at a shelter or rehabilitation center.

Unless you have extensive knowledge in animal behavior; then you are not qualified to tell me how my frogs are "going through hell" although they appear happy. Or that they are "constantly living in fear".
 

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Going through hell? Constantly living in fear? where did that come from?
They might not be living in fear, just possibly living with a belly full of worms parasitic worms.

'in it for the sake of the animals', no I'm not a conservationist, nor is probably anyone on this board with respect to dart frogs. Did I ever elude to that? nope actually the opposite.

Since you are obviously in it for strictly entertainment value why don't you try saltwater for your water, that would be interesting.... Maybe try adding a water dragon, it shouldn't acknowledge the frogs as food, after all they are from different continents. Maybe try a desert setup for your frogs, but be sure you get them as adults, their much more adaptable.

On a more serious note, when you get your frogs, obviously you will, give 'em each a four leaf clover for me. Maybe plant some in the tank, they are going to need some luck.
 

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snip "Yea that's why I didn't want to start this debate. I think a lot of the problem starts when people try to attach their human emotions to animals that obviously do not have the capacity to feel them. A frog is "happy" so long as it is healthy, well fed, etc. If frogs are breeding in these situations I would say that nobody is in any place to comment as to the "happiness" or how content these animals are over ones housed by themselves."

If you think this is inappropriate then why were you the person to attach human emotion descriptions to frogs when there had been no mention of it in the earlier posts?
Anyway, reproduction has nothing to do with (to use your phrase) "happiness" of the animal. Most reproductive cues are hardwired into the responding amphibian once minimal physiological needs are met. The "happiness" of the animal is a moot point when this occurs as reproduction will occur. A better discussion will actually reference negative stressors and their potential effects on reproduction but as long as the stressor is constant and does not kill the animal immediatly then the animal adapts and continues on with life. This does not mean that the animal is happy, instead it means that the trigger for that stressor has become elevated.

snip " I also don't think anybody in this hobby is keeping the animals for anything other than exactly that, a hobby."

What about those of us, where part of our employment is in keeping the frogs? This is an inappropriate absolutist statement.


snip "Unless you have extensive knowledge in animal behavior; then you are not qualified to tell me how my frogs are "going through hell" although they appear happy. Or that they are "constantly living in fear"."

Again you are the first person (in the entire thread) to attach an emotional value judgement to this topic.

Why would a person need to have extensive knowledge in animal behavior to be qualified as opposed to experience and knowledge in dart frog behavior to be able to answer this question. You seemed awful quick to jump to an attack on an issue that had not been referenced in any of the above thread. Are you trying to begin a confilict?

Ed
 

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Ed said:
Why would a person need to have extensive knowledge in animal behavior to be qualified as opposed to experience and knowledge in dart frog behavior to be able to answer this question. You seemed awful quick to jump to an attack on an issue that had not been referenced in any of the above thread. Are you trying to begin a confilict?

Ed
I don't think he's trying to start a conflict as much as he is trying to justify doiing something he knows is completely wrong.

He also may be setting himself up with an excuse for his own conscious when he runs into the exact problems everyone warns him of.

I did what he is planning on doing, not exactly but close enough with a reeftank. This was about 5 years ago, when I thought I knew enough and didn't want to listen to those with more experience than myself. I was as sure as I could be that everything would be fine, although I was warned not to put that fish in that type of tank, but of course the fish slowly dwindled away. He probably has slightly better odds than I did, but research is truly invaluable when it comes to situations and planning like this. You can hear from 50 different sources that it won't work, but you see the light and know it will work. Then your hear about someones success with a day gecko, and whuala; its doable, when geckos and chameleons are well as different (almost) as dart frogs and chameleons.

Unfortunately when it comes to people like this, this is a hobby and people will do what they will. Its just too bad it is at the expense of these awesome animals.
It reminds me of those idiots that buy baby anacondas or salcutta tortoises just so they can see how large and cool they'll be, meanwhile they end up outgrowing their cages and either left in the mobile home the person was renting or donated to a zoo. Its purely entertainment, with zero regard for the animals.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Wow, im glad to know that therre ARE people out there as passionate about not mixing as I.
I am completely and totally against the idea for obvious reasons, that even the most simple minded person could see (even though they may completely ignore the fact).
If you think about the people who mix darts with phelsuma, its always in a very large (tall) enclosure with a wide temperature range from the top to bottom, and a diverse landscape (not a 20 gallon with a bonsai) :lol: . The darts are usually a terrestrial dart (tinctorious), so they stay closer to the bottom where it is cooler, whereas the day gecko stays at the top where it is warmer.
Even in cases such as these i still think mixing is wrong.
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Well I know Ed and I aren't against mixing, but only certain things and under certain conditions. I am very glad he posted as I was writing as similar one, but his was more elequent than mine was going to be. This really has been discussed in more than adequate amounts in the past, so there's no need to rehash it.
j
 

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Im not really against mixing either. I generally stick to mixing things like plants and soil, or frog tongues and fruit flies. :lol:
 

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I have had long term (measured in years) success with mixed exhibits but then I tend to pay attention to what I am placing with what. In general I am against mixing that is not genrally zoogeographically correct. I have had excellant success for example with adult Emerald Tree Boas (Corallus caninus) with red eye tree frogs (to the point the RETF died of old age), I have also had excellant success with Atelopus zeteki with Abronia graminea.

I have some other examples but that is for another time. Anytime I see a post where someone is responding to a nonexistant attack I automatically assume there is a hidden agenda.

Ed
 

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I didn’t really have time to read all the posts so if I am restating what others have already said I do apologize.

Rhampholeons will die in a moist environment with out proper ventilation. I kept them for several years and bred many generations of offspring. You might be able to keep them for 6 months to a year under these moist conditions but they will not thrive and will eventually die. I made this mistake several years ago when I first started keeping them and eventually lost all of my collection (including some Brookesia now listed as CITES1). You need to keep them pretty dry with a light daily misting. Also these are most probably coming in WC so I highly recommend an extended quarantine period. All most all of mine were infected with some nasty little parasites.

I'm all about keeping several species of animal together and Rhampholeon are very rewarding to work with but why would you want to mix chameleons from Africa with frogs from South America? You should probably try to mix something that, at least, comes from the same continent. Just my two cents.

-Blake
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
When I was littler, I usto mix things like snakes and toads, foolish little boy I was. You might think the frog was the one to get eaten, well... your right, but the bad thing is the frog released its toxins and the snake got sick... and didnt look like living so I let it go. Dont worry, it wasn't a PDF. :lol: Ok, heres a question that didn't get answered in the 75 G post, I dont think anyone knew, but here it is. Can I keep stump tailed chamelions and dendrobates auratus in a 75 gallon terrarium, and will the mixing affect the frogs breeding habits and fedding? Also, will the chamelions eat the fruitflies? Will I have to feed the chamelions waxworms? If so, where can I purchase waxworms? Ok, please tell me if I mis-spelled anything wrong so I can learn from the errors of my bad spelling and grammer ways. Thanks for the help. :D

Paul
 

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FrogKid said:
When I was littler, I usto mix things like snakes and toads, foolish little boy I was. You might think the frog was the one to get eaten, well... your right, but the bad thing is the frog released its toxins and the snake got sick... and didnt look like living so I let it go. Dont worry, it wasn't a PDF. :lol: Ok, heres a question that didn't get answered in the 75 G post, I dont think anyone knew, but here it is. Can I keep stump tailed chamelions and dendrobates auratus in a 75 gallon terrarium, and will the mixing affect the frogs breeding habits and fedding? Also, will the chamelions eat the fruitflies? Will I have to feed the chamelions waxworms? If so, where can I purchase waxworms? Ok, please tell me if I mis-spelled anything wrong so I can learn from the errors of my bad spelling and grammer ways. Thanks for the help. :D

Paul
Put it this way, tank size is not really the issue. It will help a little, but 95% of this post applies if it were a 75 gallon.
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I have an airpump going into my vivarium to provide air for my ephiphytes and chameleons. I am also wondering how many of these parasites are species specific and how many have been known to be transimitted to dart frogs?
 

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That’s hard to tell. I know a few of the nematodes that come in with rhampholeon could transfer to your frogs, I am sure that some bacterial infections could as well. I am going to have to agree with Blake that your Rhampholeon would probably suffer more adverse effects from the moist environment. When a field study was conducted around 1998 in Tanzinia..most of the rhampholeon collected were found in small shrubs, vines, and dry leaf litter on the forest floor. They are a species that enjoys misting everyday, but need to air out. Constant moisture could certainly cause upper respiratory problems and bacterial/fungal infections in this species (I housed all my chameleons in screened in enclosure for better air movement). Brookesia have even more arid requirements than rhampholeon. The risk of mixing these guys and having a problem is there and that is what I tried to post in my previous statement. It’s a bit annoying to hear people sit on the forum and cast stones at others. I don’t mix species because I am afraid of the adverse effects. Don't sit hear and call people thoughtless and selfish and make a huge ordeal...The best way to try and prevent mixing of species is to further educate a person contemplating to do this on the possible problems mixing species might cause. To debate an animals "happiness" when it comes to mixing..I don't think it’s realistic to think that these frogs or rhampholeon don't come into contact with any other species in the wild (certainly not each other). But when your placing either of these species in close proximity to another in an enclosed environment, you should consider all possibilities before moving forward. It isn’t your responsibility as a frog lover/breeder/expert to label and yell at others...educate them on the possible problems of doing this your bound to get a better response.

-Mike
 
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