Crossbreeds, update

gothaicus said:

Take a look at the pic from this study. Just sharing. An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie



I agree. I just don't see the point other than to get attention. Why not register with ASN and do something useful. I really don't buy the "it was an accident" factor either. This is the only occurrence right? I've seen YouTube vids of yours Troy; with orange & mint terribilis in the same tank apparently cause another tank was not setup properly yet. Nice pics though. Do what you want though.

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yeah those videos were posted months ago, I have 4 orange in a 44 gallon since October, and i have 2 mints in a 20 since October. I really could care less what you believe, im just letting ppl know it was done purposely, but it was the first of any of my frogs that ever bred, i have set up pair tanks that were not breeding at the time, so these being my first egg, i knew that it was not looked at highly, but i could not resist learning the breeding behavior, egg development, and just the curiosity of what would come of them. . . oh btw the breeder i got all the terribs from, i asked him if it would be ok to have all the terribs in the tank, temporarily until the mints tank was set up, and he said yes im sure they will be fine.
-Troy

oh btw Mzfroggie, thanks for gettin ma back, but honestly i really didn't think there was all that much bashing...thanks tho

swampfoxjjr said:

Would you not agree that lacking this simple definition knowledge (specifically the definition of species) should perhaps have been a deterent to this "experiment" given that without proper understanding of the basic definition of essential terms one cannot formulate a meaningful hypothesis without which no experiment can technically occur? I guess what I am trying to say is I don't understand what was supposed to be learned by this. A 70% Yellow adult female Tinc mates with a 75% Black adult male Tinc and you get offspring more yellow than the latter and more black than the former...EUREKA!!.

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You are asking for a personal opinion so I am going to give you one.... you are making some assumptions that I don't think help with the whole issue. On a back read other than the idea that there may be fertility issues which was implied or mentioned in several posts by various people, I don't think the whole species idea was really the idea behind it so that doesn't change the idea behind the hypothesis. Which was to see what happened when those two particular frogs from two different morphs of the same species were crossed. This was then documented in the pictures.

swampfoxjjr said:

Pardon the sarcasm but it just calls into question the supposed "deeper scientific agenda" behind this thread (and its predecessors). I am curious to hear your thoughts on how this public display of an unpopular practice aids or for that matter hinders the work of ASN or the hobby as a whole. Also, on a related note, your thoughts on how, if at all, crossbreeding Tinctorius morphs betters the species or the specific breeder frogs if nature has not yet seen fit to produce such crosses in the wild would be most appreciated.

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I don't think there is a deeper scientific agenda other than curiosity. Now that this is considered misplaced by the hobby in general doesn't invalidate the curiosity.

I am not in favor of hybrids for a number of reasons but the following are the primary reasons
1) at this time it, based on some basic projections we currently do not have sufficient members in the hobby to maintain the current selection of species and as a consequence we see the boom and bust cycles of popularity and each one reduces the genetic variability as the populations typically crash down to only a relatively few animals. Some of the frogs in the hobby have may have done this more than once.
2) People often aquire a frog and decide that they do not agree with the identification and post pictures asking what do people think it is and by popular acclaim assign it to a morph that may be different than the it really is. This is something that could very easily happen with hybrids between species and crosses between morphs and the result is a serious problem for the long term maitenance of the pure populations of those species.
3) Dendrobatids can live for a long time and a failure to properly mark crosses and hybrids means that if a person gets out of the hobby a purchaser or even a reseller can misidentify the frogs.

As for bettering the frogs, I think I conveyed the proper information earlier in the thread when discussing a number of issues and at this time I do not see the need to repeat them.

Some comments,

Ed

do you think that the responsible reproduction of well documented hybrid localities could shift some of the rabid consumerism that plagues this hobby away from new importations? I liked Ed's comments, and some of those points could be used to argue against influxes of new species/localities to the hobby. Hybrids will be a part of this hobby in the next 5 years like it or not. As an observer of the hobby i think that it is just driven too much by ego, materialism, and "collector mentality" to not tap into what hybrids can bring. Love it or hate it it is just part of the culture im afraid. Did hybrids destroy the orchid hobbyists? As long as they are well documented i do not think hybrid darts will destroy this hobby. May even make it more interesting for those with a shorter attention span.

Ben E said:

do you think that the responsible reproduction of well documented hybrid localities could shift some of the rabid consumerism that plagues this hobby away from new importations? I liked Ed's comments, and some of those points could be used to argue against influxes of new species/localities to the hobby. Hybrids will be a part of this hobby in the next 5 years like it or not. As an observer of the hobby i think that it is just driven too much by ego, materialism, and "collector mentality" to not tap into what hybrids can bring. Love it or hate it it is just part of the culture im afraid. Did hybrids destroy the orchid hobbyists? As long as they are well documented i do not think hybrid darts will destroy this hobby. May even make it more interesting for those with a shorter attention span.

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With the way this thread was left alone you just may be right. This is not the orchid or reptile hobby. Keeping with the feeders and habitat construction, basically time and commitment it takes. In the long run, years not months.........do we really want to create hybrids to draw people to the hobby?

Look at it this way, we are in a unique position to stand our ground and say not going to happen here with hybrids. This is the forum for the hobby. All of the stuff said by Troy is junk. These creatures with their possible life spans out live our short attention spans. In my previous post I am saying that all of this hybrid crud by Troy is to be called what it is............junk and this thread and he should have been called out long before this. Look at the date to his post about his mixed tank that I responded to.......................and he is claiming years of experience?

It is the stance of this board that hybrids are 'bad'. 5 years down the line? I say that it is not responsible for all of our members here to stand by and let Troy keep a thread like this going.

So am I out of line.................I believe not........Hybrid are bad and so is Troy for producing them, especially so many that he has no intention of keeping for the 12+ years of their life span.
So am I the only one that feels this way, am I out of line?

Hybrids are out there. I saw my first over 10 years ago at Lee Watsons show(i think it was a cobalt azureus). What worries me more is the hybrids we all have in our collections. You don`t know how many times over the years I`ve seen panama or nicaraguan auratus sold as costa rican, because they were hot at the time. i`ve seen every morph of tricolor called santa isabel. I have hobbyists come to my table and tell me about the cobalt tincs they have breeding that the male is 2 x the size of the female(dwarf female and surinam male).
There are 2 hobbies in the dart world, those who mix and will hybridize and those that want it pure(db). The dart hobby is part of the larger reptile trade. There always will be hybrids, like it or not. What worries me more is the unknown hybrids circulating, they can do much more damage. I know it sounds like a mess, but just like other laws, if it`s driven into the shadows we can`t learn from it and why would anyone, after this, mention it in public? It seems it`d do more damage than good to be split. People who want hybrids could help conservation, also, if they`re not shut out. The one unifying trait is that we`re all interested and curious about dart frogs.

Register your known lines!

evolvstll said:

am I out of line?

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I think you have every right to feel and beleive what you do. I do think you are out of line telling someone they have to have your same beliefs and that a thread oppossing your beliefs cannot/should not be allowed and if it is, it is junk.

I personally do not feel the need to have hybrid frogs but I do not feel my opinion should dictate what others do. It has been stated in other threads and again in this one by other members that hybrids are out there and will make it into the hobby probably sooner then later. I believe from watching this forum for the last 3 years that there are alot more mixed tanks and hybrid frogs out there then anyone wants to admit. I think the question is, what can we do to maintain accurate records of true bloodline frogs. I think there are great steps in place and as long as the true blood line hobbiest stay loyal to their cause and only buy from breeders that have a proven track record that the bloodlines can remain clean.

Just my two cents and you all know how much two cents buys these days

frogfarm said:

Hybrids are out there. I saw my first over 10 years ago at Lee Watsons show(i think it was a cobalt azureus). What worries me more is the hybrids we all have in our collections. You don`t know how many times over the years I`ve seen panama or nicaraguan auratus sold as costa rican, because they were hot at the time. i`ve seen every morph of tricolor called santa isabel. I have hobbyists come to my table and tell me about the cobalt tincs they have breeding that the male is 2 x the size of the female(dwarf female and surinam male).
(snip)

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And from Ed:

2) People often aquire a frog and decide that they do not agree with the identification and post pictures asking what do people think it is and by popular acclaim assign it to a morph that may be different than the it really is. This is something that could very easily happen with hybrids between species and crosses between morphs and the result is a serious problem for the long term maintenance of the pure populations of those species.

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We really have an identification system that relies on trust for most of the morphs out there. That is why I agree with Aaron, when he said that known lines need to be registered.

The hobby is growing beyond the point where that trust is workable. When people are deciding what morph a frog is, based on appearance alone, or changing names to a "hotter" morph, registration seems the only solution.

A couple anecdotal examples:

1. I recently had somebody come in the store looking for "reduced pattern" New Rivers. After verifying my suspicions with a couple breeders, I told him I didn't think that was an actual morph, as it was based solely on appearance, rather than a distinct geographically-based, naturally occurring population. The buyer's response: "Oh, but the guy I got these from said they are more valuable."

That sounds like Aaron's argument to me. That customer has returned three times to ask if I've been able to track down the frogs he's looking for, and I tell him each time the reason they are not considered a morph. And I watch his eyes glaze over.

2. Bowing to customer pressure, I brought in a few generic 2009-import strawberry pumilio imports. I keep them in the back, and only sell them to customers that seem to have the knowledge to care for them. I always tell them they can only be described as "2009 imports," and that we have no site data for them. A new customer came in, and asked about the availability of strawberry pumilio. After talking with him for a few minutes to see if he had any experience, I decided to show him my stock. I went through my whole discussion about site data and that these could only be described as generic imports. His response, "Oh, those are Bastimentos."

There's Ed's argument. It's hard to turn somebody away when they've got a $100 bill in their hand, and the store rent is due, but it's troubling that this guy - innocently or not - may represent these frogs as a specific morph.

In either case, as the hobby grows, all frogs without registration will at some point have to be considered suspect hybrids.

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Jim

I personally think that the biggest problem with this thread (aside from the fact that they were bred intentionally in the first place) is the potential to cause new dart enthusiasts to think that hybrids are ok if kept to themselves and not released into the hobby. As a new dart enthusiast there can be a lot of information to learn and grasp the reasoning for it all, and all too often we look at bits and pieces of a post instead of reading the whole discussion and make uninformed decisions based off of the little bit that we read. I would be willing to bet that if there were 10 or 15 more posts like this, a simple search for "hybrid" would yeild results that a newbie could very easily browse through and come to the wrong conclusion. Could you imagine if every other day we had to read about a new keepers hybrid, only to have them respond "I read that it was ok as long as I didn't sell them" or something to that effect. The disclaimers are not enough. It was irresponsible in the first place, and publicly displaying it is not helping the hobby and those of us who responsibly keep and breed these jewels. My .02

I think the biggest problem with the thread was from page 1 when the word hybrid is used.. Every time that word gets used this is where we end up fighting, bickering, pointing fingers. When this thread first came out I thank him for REPRESENTING his animals for what they are..I never said i liked them or agreed with them or thought them being maid was a good idea... Any one thats been paying attention to my stance on hybrids or has read my blogs on DB now where I stand on this...It's the same place where most people do. We don't need to beat a dead horse every time this word comes up...People have the right to make up thier own minds and us pushing our beliefs on them instead of explaining why we believe in it is not going to help the cause..Please lets just get back to the frogs and drop this before its a locked thread...
Brian