[Pitcom]

Awesome Tincs. I have no problem with cross breeds myself. I currently have a communal tank with , Alanis, Azureus and Leucomelas living together. It is my hope that they will cross breed. Some zoos i have been too have communal tanks. One i visited had 7 different tincs living together in the same tank. Like you, this is for my enjoyment and to study their behavior and traits. My goal was to take 2 of each of the frogs I listed and see if they paired up with their same counterpart or went a different route. All i can say so far is that The Azureus go bonkers when they hear a Leucomelas call.

 

[RedEyeTroyFrog]

ok Pitcom just so you know some people might start bashing you for the simple reason that you plan on crossing, mine happened unintentionally to start, but i just let it go. I just want to warn you, and give you some advise to be careful when breeding these because they will continue to breed in great numbers. I agree with you that they're your frogs and you have the right to do what you want with them. So if you dont plan on letting them be released to the public then great, im excited to see what comes of your frogs. Just be careful!!....how big is you enclosure that you have these frogs in?

oh btw, try not to bring up zoos, for alot of the members on this site are not very happy with the quality, and size of the enclosures that has the mixed tanks going on. It upsets quite a few member here. You have to remember, that most of zoo's not all of them care more about the awe factor/ giving people something to remember! while saving the most space they possibly can, so one nice size tank with a bunch of different species and morphs/colors of dart frogs fits that description quite well. The members on this site are more about, breeding and keeping morphs and bloodlines true, for we are all Poison Dart frogs fanatics. they do it for themselves, not to give people something to remember...
good luck with everything,
Troy

 

[swampfoxjjr]

Deleted post

 

[Devanny]

Lets not start this again, he clearly stated that he did not want any bashing he is just posting update pics of his crossbreed frogs there is no need to come at him like that.
If you dont agree with what he is doing then just ignore the post and call it a day.

 

[Brian Ferriera]

I have a really problem with people crossing frogs..how ever you're not hiding behind it..you said what you did and why you did it and you're not selling them so they're really no need for any one even the most hard core among us to start bashing you.. Thank you for representing your frogs for what they are.
Brian

 

[stitchb]

I think what you're doing is pretty cool. I mean don't get me wrong-I'm all for keeping morphs and bloodlines pure but if it happened unintentionally, I understand not killing a couple to see what pops out haha. NOW that should be not an excuse for everyone to start "accidently" breeding different species and then "accidently" selling/trading them or their offspring to other people haha.

So, long story short...

Beautiful kids! I applaud you for doing the responsible thing in this situation. It says alot about your integrity and character.

Great job

 

[Marinarawr]

While I do see many excellent points in your post (the possibility of new hobbyists deciding to undertake such experiments without the same principles that Troy holds being one of them) I also do not agree that nothing was learned and that Troy is only out for a "dramatic" response. While I have no interest or intentions of producing hybrids (of PDFs or anything else for that matter) I did find the pattern displayed in these cross breeds intriguing. They bear similar marking to the Nouragues tincs on Dendrobates tinctorius morphguide and are somewhat similar to Tafelberg and obviously Alanis. If anything was gained from this it was certainly a little insight into which naturally occurring PDF morphs may have been the originals.
I could speculate that Azureus may have been one of the original morphs of dart frog, and more widely dispersed than it is currently, that breed with the populations of Matecho, or Citronella, or Regina, giving us some of the Cobalts that have a broader color spectrum. Of course I'm being a bit too specific in my hypothetical statement but my point was that he did prove Alanis to have many dominant pattern traits over citronella. Also the offspring are rather consistent in color and pattern unlike many times when dogs are crossbreed and you can have a litter of 5 with all of them looking entirely different.
Anyway, I'd like to close by saying that I am in no way supporting hybridization, but I do commend Troy on his stalwart position on keeping these frogs in his own hands or none at all. (There are many ways of dispatching small animals as humanely as possible, that are commonly practiced by snake keepers, if you do ever come into those unfortunate circumstances Troy.) I also appreciate that he has the courage to share his findings. Yes many people (newcomer or not) are guilty of mixing species but I think that if a person has it in their head to crossbreed then they'll do it whether they see Troys post or not. I think that posts like this may even be good for the hobby in the way that newcomers are shown a hybrid and then they get to read the negatives and see what a tongue lashing they'd get if they ever explored that avenue themselves. I know I wouldn't wanna take that kind of heat...


*EDIT* Post deleted. I don't wanna disrespect that . Because of this some of my statements may seem out of place but whatever .

 

[Anoleo2]

While I don't embrace the crossbreeding factor, I do respect you for not trying to pawn these off on some newbie, or just flat out selling them to the public.
It also seems that you have respect for the views of other hobbyists, and are not just saying "These are my frogs, I don't care what you say, I will do what I want with them," like some people I have seen.

Thanks for being responsible!

 

[RedEyeTroyFrog]

nice post marina, i really feel that we have a similar opinion on the whole situation. all of my other frogs breed true, and are paired up with same morph pairs. So i was not for hybrid breeding ever, it happened because i put some of the frogs who did not have a male or female counter part in a communal 150 gallon tank, thinking it would give enough space to not crossbreed, fight, etc. etc., but then once i saw that they did breed, i became obsessively curious, i started second guessing all the tinctorius moprhs, so i just had to see what they looked liked.

with all that being said i have got an idea of how these frogs work in my house, they created about 30 of these all perfectly healthy off spring and ive culled probably around 80-100 eggs, the breeding activity only went on less than a year. So i have a slight easier time believing that this is not impossible (like some other believe) for this to occur in the wild. i also find it hard to believe that locality is the MAIN reason these animals dont cross, my reason behind that is that there are numbers "True Breeds" found from the same Locale

now i am wondering what the offspring would look like from a Alanis female and citronella male?? would their traits change in any way? FYI : im not planning on finding out!
while i was never for cross breeding tincs, i am still not against it....i feel if controlled under the right circumstance it can end up being really beneficial for us and learing more about the morphology of the tinctorius species

 

[jackj921]

Re: Crossbreeds-Questions??????

As a "newbie" to dart frogs but a long long time tropical fish keeper, I have two question to ask.. "why are cross breeds looked at so harshly by dart frog keeps but not fish keepers?" Does that view keep the DF hobby from expanding?
As an example, with tropical fish there are those who love wild discus and there are those who love the new reds, blues, whites, oranges etc not found in the wild. Mollies, guppies, swordtails, angelfish also immediately come to mind with new color combinations (and even fin variations), yet the original wild versions still have a place in the hearts of many fish keepers. Do any "risks" associated with creating these man made color varieties of fish exist to the same degree with DF or is there some additional factor for frogs? Why is it highly "acceptable" (and desirable) for fish keepers to create new colors but a "sin" for DF keepers?
Would the DF hobby grow and expand or suffer if new color varieties of tincs were created by crossing different types? Why isn't there room in the DF hobby for both "pure breds" and colorful "mutts" at the same time? I guess I had more than two questions, but I think the views of some of the old timers to DF will make for an interesting discussion.

 

[boogsawaste]

Re: Crossbreeds-Questions??????

As a "newbie" to dart frogs but a long long time tropical fish keeper, I have two question to ask.. "why are cross breeds looked at so harshly by dart frog keeps but not fish keepers?" Does that view keep the DF hobby from expanding?
As an example, with tropical fish there are those who love wild discus and there are those who love the new reds, blues, whites, oranges etc not found in the wild. Mollies, guppies, swordtails, angelfish also immediately come to mind with new color combinations (and even fin variations), yet the original wild versions still have a place in the hearts of many fish keepers. Do any "risks" associated with creating these man made color varieties of fish exist to the same degree with DF or is there some additional factor for frogs? Why is it highly "acceptable" (and desirable) for fish keepers to create new colors but a "sin" for DF keepers?
Would the DF hobby grow and expand or suffer if new color varieties of tincs were created by crossing different types? Why isn't there room in the DF hobby for both "pure breds" and colorful "mutts" at the same time? I guess I had more than two questions, but I think the views of some of the old timers to DF will make for an interesting discussion.

I'm not going to get very into it but one of the main reasons is that there are limited numbers of these frogs in captivity AND in the wild. Once things get mixed up the true morph of the frog can eventually be lost forever.

And Troy, those frogs are looking spectacular if I do say so myself. Once again, I applaud you on your braveness to post those, and your dedication to keep them safe from entering the hobby.

 

[stitchb]

Re: Crossbreeds-Questions??????

As a "newbie" to dart frogs but a long long time tropical fish keeper, I have two question to ask.. "why are cross breeds looked at so harshly by dart frog keeps but not fish keepers?" Does that view keep the DF hobby from expanding?

The thing with this hobby is it's more about conservation than anything. These animals are critically endangered-habitat destruction, chytrid fungus, water contamination, rising temperatures, etc...I belive that pretty much all of the members here, myself included (one day lol), breed and keep these animals in the hopes that one day, should the conditions ever change, that there will be enough CB species to reintroduce sustainable populations back to into the wild.

That's it in a nutshell! That's why it's a no-no ahaha, my take anyway.

 

[jackj921]

I think both of you who replied to my questions have clearly and succinctly explained the reasoning for not crossing dart frog varieties in very few words? Thank You!!!!!
I also just thought of another reason-dart frogs ALREADY come in more color combinations that there really is no need to create "new" colors, unlike say discus where the wild versions are primarily brown, angelfish only being silver and black in the wild etc etc.
So why isn't this hobby more widespread? There is actually less work and equipment necessary in keeping frogs than fish. And by far, I am finding tadpoles much more tolerant of less than perfect water than discus fry, or angel fry etc.

 

[thedude]

wow those are very nice looking. as long as they stay out of the hobby i dont care. i dont entirely see the point when there are already morphs that look close to that though. but atleaset you are responsible.

HOWEVER.....the problem i have with posting about it is the quote below:

what did you cross to get these. i was looking to get a pair of suriname cobalts but these are gorgeous! would you ever sell any?

seems like you encouraged a noob to want these. went from wanting a legitimate pair to wanting a science experiment.

i guess what im saying is its fine as long as they stay out of the hobby and make sure newbies know that natural accuring morphs are the way to go, and why it is so important.

 

[Dendrobait]

Honestly these frogs are not particularly "nice looking"...but this does show the dangers of hybrids!

If you posted those w/o the mention of their origins I bet people would have suspected Surinam Cobalt or Inferalanis(Apparently yellow is a recessive trait?)...perhaps odder ones due to the plain yellow sides. They don't have anything special marking them as hybrids. And that is why we'd rather not have hybrids out there in the hobby.

But you've done a good job in holding onto them, and they look well taken care of.

 

[Nate]

I think both of you who replied to my questions have clearly and succinctly explained the reasoning for not crossing dart frog varieties in very few words? Thank You!!!!!
I also just thought of another reason-dart frogs ALREADY come in more color combinations that there really is no need to create "new" colors, unlike say discus where the wild versions are primarily brown, angelfish only being silver and black in the wild etc etc.
So why isn't this hobby more widespread? There is actually less work and equipment necessary in keeping frogs than fish. And by far, I am finding tadpoles much more tolerant of less than perfect water than discus fry, or angel fry etc.

It's like falconry, the government doesn't want the wrong people to be getting into this hobby. If it was available to everyone their would be more Dart Frog releases into the wild.

oh btw, try not to bring up zoos, for alot of the members on this site are not very happy with the quality, and size of the enclosures that has the mixed tanks going on. It upsets quite a few member here. You have to remember, that most of zoo's not all of them care more about the awe factor/ giving people something to remember! while saving the most space they possibly can, so one nice size tank with a bunch of different species and morphs/colors of dart frogs fits that description quite well. The members on this site are more about, breeding and keeping morphs and bloodlines true, for we are all Poison Dart frogs fanatics. they do it for themselves, not to give people something to remember...
good luck with everything,
Troy

Went a local zoo like a month ago. Monday they got their first darts. Went to see them on wednesday, wednesday- pathetic looking frogs... thursday- no frogs

I complained about it to the manager and they said they were taking perfect care of them and it was a unknown problem that killed them... Stress of a mixed tank and not properly set up tank is my guess. Yet another reason why the hobby isn't wide spread, many people just can't take care of things.

 

[RedEyeTroyFrog]

Honestly these frogs are not particularly "nice looking"...but this does show the dangers of hybrids!

If you posted those w/o the mention of their origins I bet people would have suspected Surinam Cobalt or Inferalanis(Apparently yellow is a recessive trait?)...perhaps odder ones due to the plain yellow sides. They don't have anything special marking them as hybrids. And that is why we'd rather not have hybrids out there in the hobby.

But you've done a good job in holding onto them, and they look well taken care of.

ok ive got some catching up to do, its st patties day still where im at and im just getting home from the bar. . . but this is the post that kinda rattled me.

You say these frogs are not particularly "nice looking" ?? id like to know what fits your line of description for "nice looking"

IMO while both morphs you mentioned have traits of these frogs, u can say that for a bout 20 different morphs so im not exactly following you there. Yes yellow is a recessive trait for a lot of the tinc morphs... including mine, the thing i find rare in these frogs are the amount of yellow they have, the heavily marked bellies legs and elbows, and the bracelets.... and if we go there well, we could talk regina, azureus, GO, even as far as yellow sips (as for the bellies) , inferalanis, giant orange, certain variations of cobalts, matecho, yellow bacl just a few off top of my head to name for the bracelets, and as for the elbows, well... ive never really seen that in any frog that ive personally seen, but thats not to say that it doesnt exists. the feet and toes on the other hand remind me alot of alanis which makes sense.

with all that being said.... you said " They dont have anything special marking them as hybrids" . . . therefore i have to assume that maybe we as a group of hobbyists we may have taken this cross breeding thing a little to far and got in a little over our heads with what we really know about these animals. if you can hardly tell the difference from a high resolution camera with flash showing all marks of the frog, how would really know the difference seeing in person? might just fit within the frogs of its locale, and not be horrifyingly different... you know what im sayn? I'm not arguing just trying to keep the thought open that we really dont have a clue of whats really out there.

Happy st Car Bomb
-Troy

 

[RedEyeTroyFrog]

wow those are very nice looking. as long as they stay out of the hobby i dont care. i dont entirely see the point when there are already morphs that look close to that though. but atleaset you are responsible.

HOWEVER.....the problem i have with posting about it is the quote below:


seems like you encouraged a noob to want these. went from wanting a legitimate pair to wanting a science experiment.

i guess what im saying is its fine as long as they stay out of the hobby and make sure newbies know that natural accuring morphs are the way to go, and why it is so important.

well that noob you say, has pm'd me and explained what his thoughts are on the matter, and has a pretty decent knowledge on this subject... he respected me for what i was doing. but anyways, i really get irked when people say natural occurring morphs, i guess it bothers me because, IN MY OPINION i feel we really aren't exactly sure what the natural occurring morphs are. dont mean to argue, its just my opinion and its quite strong

and what is your problem with having a legitimate pair and having a science experiment?... its a matter of choice, u may want to breed these animals true and not really learn anything about the morphology and just learn the tinctorius breeding process, some may just do it for extra easy cash. while another person may want to cross this SAME SPECIES but different color morphs to try and put some actual knowledge behind this. . . its a matter of opinion and choice, no1 should be able to tell them who is right or wrong when it is in fact THEIR hobby.
... once again if i come of hostile i don't mean to be, i just get kinda frustrated on this subject...

 

[RedEyeTroyFrog]

ok and last but not least, im kinda tired of ppl saying the reason we dont cross breed is because of habitat deconstruction, fungus, blah we have to keep these lines true... if this is really the fact and we do end up losing all of the wild population of PDF's (tinctorius), this site has allready proven that there is a much higher number of those on here who do not agree with cross breeding, so if there are that many of us, then we really wont need to worry as far as the hobby goes, true lines should/will always be around...i really highly doubt that if a couple ppl start breeding crosses, its gonna take over the hobby, and leave all the true breeders in the dust. I really think that the reasoning behind this is ridiculous. As long as we dont take all of the frogs in the hobby today for granted, then we should be ok, we already took some frogs for granted back in the late 80's and early 90's, which has made then next to impossible to acquire now days, but i feel that the steady flow and variety of frogs we can offer today will be around for quite some time, (Just in the US alone).........so my main point is that cross breeding with not affect the natural wild population(as we know it as of know) at all in my mind....

ugh had to get that off my chest
-Troy

 

[frogparty]

Well one thing's for certain... in the dog world, mutts live the longest, often with far fewer health issues that true breeds suffer as a result of line breeding. You just diversified those frogs gene pool, and I bet they turn out huge, horny and healthy