Crossbreeds, update

ok Pitcom just so you know some people might start bashing you for the simple reason that you plan on crossing, mine happened unintentionally to start, but i just let it go. I just want to warn you, and give you some advise to be careful when breeding these because they will continue to breed in great numbers. I agree with you that they're your frogs and you have the right to do what you want with them. So if you dont plan on letting them be released to the public then great, im excited to see what comes of your frogs. Just be careful!!....how big is you enclosure that you have these frogs in?

oh btw, try not to bring up zoos, for alot of the members on this site are not very happy with the quality, and size of the enclosures that has the mixed tanks going on. It upsets quite a few member here. You have to remember, that most of zoo's not all of them care more about the awe factor/ giving people something to remember! while saving the most space they possibly can, so one nice size tank with a bunch of different species and morphs/colors of dart frogs fits that description quite well. The members on this site are more about, breeding and keeping morphs and bloodlines true, for we are all Poison Dart frogs fanatics. they do it for themselves, not to give people something to remember...
good luck with everything,
Troy

nice post marina, i really feel that we have a similar opinion on the whole situation. all of my other frogs breed true, and are paired up with same morph pairs. So i was not for hybrid breeding ever, it happened because i put some of the frogs who did not have a male or female counter part in a communal 150 gallon tank, thinking it would give enough space to not crossbreed, fight, etc. etc., but then once i saw that they did breed, i became obsessively curious, i started second guessing all the tinctorius moprhs, so i just had to see what they looked liked.

with all that being said i have got an idea of how these frogs work in my house, they created about 30 of these all perfectly healthy off spring and ive culled probably around 80-100 eggs, the breeding activity only went on less than a year. So i have a slight easier time believing that this is not impossible (like some other believe) for this to occur in the wild. i also find it hard to believe that locality is the MAIN reason these animals dont cross, my reason behind that is that there are numbers "True Breeds" found from the same Locale

now i am wondering what the offspring would look like from a Alanis female and citronella male?? would their traits change in any way? FYI : im not planning on finding out!
while i was never for cross breeding tincs, i am still not against it....i feel if controlled under the right circumstance it can end up being really beneficial for us and learing more about the morphology of the tinctorius species

Dendrobait said:

Honestly these frogs are not particularly "nice looking"...but this does show the dangers of hybrids!

If you posted those w/o the mention of their origins I bet people would have suspected Surinam Cobalt or Inferalanis(Apparently yellow is a recessive trait?)...perhaps odder ones due to the plain yellow sides. They don't have anything special marking them as hybrids. And that is why we'd rather not have hybrids out there in the hobby.

But you've done a good job in holding onto them, and they look well taken care of.

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ok ive got some catching up to do, its st patties day still where im at and im just getting home from the bar. . . but this is the post that kinda rattled me.

You say these frogs are not particularly "nice looking" ?? id like to know what fits your line of description for "nice looking"

IMO while both morphs you mentioned have traits of these frogs, u can say that for a bout 20 different morphs so im not exactly following you there. Yes yellow is a recessive trait for a lot of the tinc morphs... including mine, the thing i find rare in these frogs are the amount of yellow they have, the heavily marked bellies legs and elbows, and the bracelets.... and if we go there well, we could talk regina, azureus, GO, even as far as yellow sips (as for the bellies) , inferalanis, giant orange, certain variations of cobalts, matecho, yellow bacl just a few off top of my head to name for the bracelets, and as for the elbows, well... ive never really seen that in any frog that ive personally seen, but thats not to say that it doesnt exists. the feet and toes on the other hand remind me alot of alanis which makes sense.

with all that being said.... you said " They dont have anything special marking them as hybrids" . . . therefore i have to assume that maybe we as a group of hobbyists we may have taken this cross breeding thing a little to far and got in a little over our heads with what we really know about these animals. if you can hardly tell the difference from a high resolution camera with flash showing all marks of the frog, how would really know the difference seeing in person? might just fit within the frogs of its locale, and not be horrifyingly different... you know what im sayn? I'm not arguing just trying to keep the thought open that we really dont have a clue of whats really out there.

Happy st Car Bomb
-Troy

thedude said:

wow those are very nice looking. as long as they stay out of the hobby i dont care. i dont entirely see the point when there are already morphs that look close to that though. but atleaset you are responsible.

HOWEVER.....the problem i have with posting about it is the quote below:


seems like you encouraged a noob to want these. went from wanting a legitimate pair to wanting a science experiment.

i guess what im saying is its fine as long as they stay out of the hobby and make sure newbies know that natural accuring morphs are the way to go, and why it is so important.

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well that noob you say, has pm'd me and explained what his thoughts are on the matter, and has a pretty decent knowledge on this subject... he respected me for what i was doing. but anyways, i really get irked when people say natural occurring morphs, i guess it bothers me because, IN MY OPINION i feel we really aren't exactly sure what the natural occurring morphs are. dont mean to argue, its just my opinion and its quite strong

and what is your problem with having a legitimate pair and having a science experiment?... its a matter of choice, u may want to breed these animals true and not really learn anything about the morphology and just learn the tinctorius breeding process, some may just do it for extra easy cash. while another person may want to cross this SAME SPECIES but different color morphs to try and put some actual knowledge behind this. . . its a matter of opinion and choice, no1 should be able to tell them who is right or wrong when it is in fact THEIR hobby.
... once again if i come of hostile i don't mean to be, i just get kinda frustrated on this subject...

ok and last but not least, im kinda tired of ppl saying the reason we dont cross breed is because of habitat deconstruction, fungus, blah we have to keep these lines true... if this is really the fact and we do end up losing all of the wild population of PDF's (tinctorius), this site has allready proven that there is a much higher number of those on here who do not agree with cross breeding, so if there are that many of us, then we really wont need to worry as far as the hobby goes, true lines should/will always be around...i really highly doubt that if a couple ppl start breeding crosses, its gonna take over the hobby, and leave all the true breeders in the dust. I really think that the reasoning behind this is ridiculous. As long as we dont take all of the frogs in the hobby today for granted, then we should be ok, we already took some frogs for granted back in the late 80's and early 90's, which has made then next to impossible to acquire now days, but i feel that the steady flow and variety of frogs we can offer today will be around for quite some time, (Just in the US alone).........so my main point is that cross breeding with not affect the natural wild population(as we know it as of know) at all in my mind....

ugh had to get that off my chest
-Troy

ok Jack,
i liked your post, particularly you question about what if we found a hybrid tinctorius in the wild? .... this made me laugh because i feel that we already have found hybrids, but we dont actually consider them hybrids, when a different morph is discovered in the wild it gets a name, either of the explorer or say its daughter or its locale. So i guess to answer you question. It would never happen, because , for example, the frog that was posted on amphibian arks website, no one knows much about it, but yet since amphibian ark found it in the wild? Its not a cross- its a new morph... this is the frog i was referring to

zee,
their growth was perfectly normal, just as good if not better than any of my other froglets that i have or have ever had, they are about 9 months OOW, right now, i have a feeling that these will be in the realm of Citronella, GO, Regina, Cobalt, Powder Blue(Giant Morphs) when they are full grown.

Also this is a question for every1. Am I really the only person to date that has actually done this nad gone public with it? I can seem to find any information about any studies on this, what has come of the cross offspring, were they fertile? I know that there has been a couple of cross tinctorius in the past, Ive seen a couple on Frognet.org, but there wasnt much info on them, not many pics, no parent details, ets ets, and then the ones found on the morph guide on tropicalexperience, Amotopo, Weygoldt, and Agreja. . . is that it, if anyone has some more information on these or anymore cases of tinc crossing please list some links, or literature and what not. thanks All

-Troy

gothaicus said:

Take a look at the pic from this study. Just sharing. An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie



I agree. I just don't see the point other than to get attention. Why not register with ASN and do something useful. I really don't buy the "it was an accident" factor either. This is the only occurrence right? I've seen YouTube vids of yours Troy; with orange & mint terribilis in the same tank apparently cause another tank was not setup properly yet. Nice pics though. Do what you want though.

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yeah those videos were posted months ago, I have 4 orange in a 44 gallon since October, and i have 2 mints in a 20 since October. I really could care less what you believe, im just letting ppl know it was done purposely, but it was the first of any of my frogs that ever bred, i have set up pair tanks that were not breeding at the time, so these being my first egg, i knew that it was not looked at highly, but i could not resist learning the breeding behavior, egg development, and just the curiosity of what would come of them. . . oh btw the breeder i got all the terribs from, i asked him if it would be ok to have all the terribs in the tank, temporarily until the mints tank was set up, and he said yes im sure they will be fine.
-Troy

oh btw Mzfroggie, thanks for gettin ma back, but honestly i really didn't think there was all that much bashing...thanks tho