Crossbreeds, update

19878 Views 111 Replies 49 Participants Last post by Ed, Jul 1, 2017

RedEyeTroyFrog

Discussion Starter · Mar 17, 2009

This is an update for some of my older cross breeds reaching sexual maturity. i currently have 6 in this stage.

first let me say that i hope there is no bashing on this post for the simple reason that these frogs have been listed on here a few times before and most of the ppl who look at these threads should understand my reason for these frogs. and its not for profit, but for curiosity and further knowledge on the tintorius morph. This thread was not to be an argument

What i have noticed is that, most of the frogs have been losing alot of the yellow and been replacing it with black. there are still a couple that have kept the full yellow head and alot on the sides. These ones happen to be most striking to me. I have also noticed their bellies brightening up a bit and looking really cool. so far the offspring seem to be male heavy. i am pretty sure i have a couple females, but the males toepads are really easy to see on these guys. I'm actually happy that this cross breed was produced, the reason being that i think its a beautiful morph, and not only that i think they are just beautiful creatures in general. These frogs are still in a 15 gallon, but i think since they have been together for so long they are still getting along, i plan on housing these frogs in the 150 gallon where they were born. i should be able to house quite a few of these puppys in there.

any way i took some pics today here they are.

sorry about all the pics i tried getting a good mix, heavy yellow/ mostly black, bellys, toes, and what not

-Troy

I'll get some pics of my azureus subs as well, ive got 8 right now and im pretty sure they are almost ready for some sexing, and ive got 7 azureus froglets, and still a ton of tads

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frogparty

· #5 · Mar 17, 2009

Im not bashing, those are beautiful, and you know better than to do something irresponsible with them. Just think, you have a frog that may exist nowhere else on earth. I think this kind of thing is just fine for people like you to mess with, just not to release into the hobby for the masses

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frogparty

· #17 · Mar 17, 2009

maybe he means the depraved look the one in pic #5 is giving the camera...lol
I'd eat you if only you were a bit smaller

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frogparty

· #40 · Mar 18, 2009

Well one thing's for certain... in the dog world, mutts live the longest, often with far fewer health issues that true breeds suffer as a result of line breeding. You just diversified those frogs gene pool, and I bet they turn out huge, horny and healthy

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frogparty

· #47 · Mar 18, 2009

tonying said:
One thing to keep in mind when comparing with dogs is that dogs have been bred to their current forms through artificial selection to promote certain traits, which may have amplified the impact of undesirable genes which have in turn have reduced their overall fitness. The frogs, on the other hand, are the result of natural selection and thus should be very fit for survival (at least survival under the conditions they originate from). Consequently, maintaining bloodlines may be a good way of maintaining fitness, thus increasing the chances of successful re-introduction into their natural setting, if that needs to be done.

Yes, but continuous line breeding and the inevitable inbreeding that occurs because of this cause many health problems. What do you think happens when there is only one bloodline available, and from the few original frogs of this bloodline imported, we end up with thousands? Look at the results every time a species has it's gene bank bottlenecked then attempts to come back from it(cheetahs are a perfect example here)
I'm not using this as an argument to support the hybridization of frogs, but merely using evidence already available to suggest that these frogs should be healthy and may enjoy increased vigor

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frogparty

· #48 · Mar 18, 2009

Wild frogs breeding and being naturally selected for fitness is one thing, where many young are naturally culled, and many many bloodlines exist in a select population. In captivity, we are working with limited bloodlines, and much inbreeding takes place, especially with rarer morphs. Look at terribilis, where up until recently you could probably count the bloodlines of each morph on one hand. There's not much natural selection going on in captivity.

And honestly, I am not holding my breath for the successful reintroduction of our captive frogs into the wild any time soon. There's no sign of stopping chytrid as of yet, and until there gets to be some real headway there, at least we can preserve them in captivity. The need to track our frogs origins is going to be an increasing need if we want to prevent the further degradation of the genetic potential of the species we keep.

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frogparty

· #53 · Mar 18, 2009

you can back cross hybrids to stabilize them, they just don't end up looking like the original f1's all the time. By taking f1's and breeding back to parent plants, or other f1 offspring the crosses stabilize over time, and don't necessarily need to be remade every year. Most of the time nowadays, crosses are remade with superior parent stock to try and increase the quality of the resulting f1, especially in the orchid world. Once a hybrid is stabilized, breeding the stabilized f4's or whatever they are together produces very similar offspring, then the rare mutations from these crosses end up becoming highly coveted clones because there is little chance that the particular trait that set that single plant apart will be bred out again.
So in the frog world, if a canyon or something gets cut off from an influx or outflow of genes, and there were 2 distinct morphs there at the start, once they start to breed together, the f1's will all look similar for the most part, the f2 offspring from these hybrids will vary greatly, then subsequent breedings will eventually start looking more and more similar until... voila! a new morph is created. These wouldn't necessarily look like the original f1 offspring of the cross, but they would eventually all look similar.

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frogparty

· #56 · Mar 18, 2009

Not all frogs in the hobby originated from thousands of wild caught individuals.
Its my understanding that mint terribilis were only imported in extremely limited numbers and there may only be 1 or 2 real bloodlines in the us. Then, there is the issue of major breeders offering offspring from the same pairs over and over again, those offspring being bred with other hobbyists frogs purchased from the same source, and so on and so forth.

Some frogs in the hobby surely have enough genetic backing for sustained viability, while others most definitely don't without continual influx of new genes.

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frogparty

· #59 · Mar 18, 2009

I knew one of the terribilis came from very limited bloodline. New lines are being imported now, I noticed, and as I stated in the wc vs cb thread, I don't have an issue with professionals importing limited numbers of wc animals in for the specific purpose of establishing new bloodlines that can be tracked by the breeding hobbyists who want to insure they can get the most diverse crossing for their animals, which is why I think that asn is such a great program, especially when we are dealing with such limited bloodlines in several cases. And yes, it would have been nice if bloodlines from previous imports would have been catalogued better, but there is nothing we can really do about that now.
But to get back on topic... sorry for the diversion troy... I think these are neat looking frogs, and hope they live a long time for you. I understand wanting to know about morphology, recessive vs dominant color traits, etc. We with inquisitive minds find ourselves pondering these things often, I'd bet, and from an amatuer perspective this is definitely one way to try and find some answers. Not that I think its an acceptable reason to go around crossing morphs willy nilly, but thats not the origin of these particular frogs. Nice pics, and would like to see some new pics of that 150 gallon

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frogparty

· #63 · Mar 18, 2009

intersting point there, so the pumilio populations overlap that much to where there could be mixing of morphs, but mate color selection is keeping the lines more or less true? what kind of overlap do the morphs have, and what is the predation pressure on them? Something must eat them, spiders snakes etc. Is there documentation of hybridization between morphs, or proof of lack there of, or when we see all these different morphs in similar locations is it not the end result of mixing between 2 or more different morphs?

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frogparty

· #65 · Mar 18, 2009

So say on bastimentos island, where several different color morphs exist, do orange always select orange for mates, and so on? what kind of research and documentation has been done with this? Do the different color morphs occupy different parts of the island? Arethey seperated by uncrossable boundaries?

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frogparty

· #69 · Mar 19, 2009

but look at the long term decline of the cheetah, where the last ice age bottlenecked their population substantially and once favorable habitat conditions returned, the reproductive success of the remaining animals is so extremely limited, and as such they are most likely facing iminent extinction from too shallow of a gene pool. Same thing happening to the lions of ngorogoro crater, except its not an ice age, but isolation both natural and artificial-human induced- has created such extreme problems in their reproductive systems(2 headed sperm, other sperm mutations, outright sterility etc) And without the influx of new genetic material, are almost certain to face the same end. With prezwalski's horse, only time will tell if enough diversity has been preserved to prevent these kind of problems.

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frogparty

· #78 · Mar 19, 2009

I believe these were accidental hybrids that were allowed to live out of curiosity, not the purposeful hybridization of 2 different morphs. Pictureswere I believe posted just for the sake of appreciation of nicely taken pics, with no emphasis on promoting this behavior in the future by others, or even troy

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