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Who thinks this will be beneficial if something good comes out of it???

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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is one of those thoughts I am sure that runs through all egg feeder frog owner's minds. Can a diet be produced which will be able to sustain the tadpoles just as well as the parental egg? This is something that I have really been thinking of lately, due to my m. laevigata's beginning to breed. They, as well as some darts, are egg feeders. They might not have as severe consequences as dart egg feeders, if the parental egg is not fed to the tadpoles, but it does have a large effect, none the less. So, I just wanted to get peoples opinions, preferably from those who have breed egg feeders, such as pums, as how beneficial something like this would be. Would it increase froglet production, or bring forth higher yields of froglets if it was just as good as an egg? I really am unaware of how many tads a female pum will feed, but I know m. laevigata's will only feed generally 1 to 3 tads, or however many they have laid into the water well.

Now, the reason I bring this up in the first place is because I do have access to great ingredients used for many larvael diets, which contain good concentrations of things, such as amino acids, etc. Amino acids are a very important thing which is obtained from eggs. Also, I am going into biology, so I thought this might be a great poject to get started on. I am planning now to get a few pairs of pumilios, and if or when I get eggs, I am going to get them analyzed to find out exactly what is needed from the eggs by the tads. I will definitely keep this forum posted, and perhaps I can get some help and knowledge from locals here in utah as well.

Now, let me know what you all think of something such as this. I know it is a big project to undertake, but I think the benefits will be very much worth it. Correct me if I am wrong!!!

Ed Parker
 

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That would be great, I've wanted a pair of blue jeans pumilio since I got into darts. From what I've heard, they breed pretty readily, but are horrible at taking care of their young. This is probably why they are so rare (captive-bred). There has been limited success with trying to feed the tads other food...other dentrobate eggs have even been tried.
If you haven't yet, read this link: (thanks Rob!)
http://www.robbster.com/RobbHome/FrogPa ... p?Tab=Home
 

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Dancing frogs said:
That would be great, I've wanted a pair of blue jeans pumilio since I got into darts. From what I've heard, they breed pretty readily, but are horrible at taking care of their young. This is probably why they are so rare (captive-bred). There has been limited success with trying to feed the tads other food...other dentrobate eggs have even been tried.
If you haven't yet, read this link: (thanks Rob!)
http://www.robbster.com/RobbHome/FrogPa ... p?Tab=Home
I think the setup has a lot to do with blue jeans reproduction. Put them in a large viv with a good misting system, hight quality water, and lots of tad rearing choices and they do fine.

I think an artificial diet is a mixed bag. I use to think it would be great but now I think it would be of limited value. It would be great for quickly getting new morphs established in the hobby but I wouldn't want to see artificial diets used routinely to rear tads other than during the establishment phase because we could end up losing the complex parental care behavior of this wonderful group of frogs. It's nice to have one group of frogs that only reproduce when we set things up right to let them do things their own way.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Aww, but is parental care instinct, or is it learned? I would vote for instinct, but i guess it could be possible to lose it. Good point.

Ed Parker
 
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I agree exactly with Brent, hence my no vote. Having something not selected for (which is what it would be like if we had artificial diets) scares me with regards to something as amazing as parental care.
j
 

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There is a professor at the University of Michigan that is currently doing research on obligate egg feeders, specifically pumilio. I don't know all the details of his research but it has to do with why the tads only eat the females eggs.

In terms of whether finding an alternate source is "good or bad", I've always been looking for ways to raise more animals mainly from a hobbyist view. There are animals that I would like to see not disappear from the hobby. There are many reasons for this, some selfish and others conservation based. Regardless, I have always advocated letting the parents raise what they will raise on their own so there isn't a risk of loosing this parental care role. There are many tads that go untransported and I've always felt that this is probably because of captive conditions, though there is no emprical data to back this up. There's a lot that is still unknown about these guys and I think if we want to continue to study or even enjoy them in captivity, an alternate food source can only be beneficial.
 

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bbrock said:
I think the setup has a lot to do with blue jeans reproduction. Put them in a large viv with a good misting system, hight quality water, and lots of tad rearing choices and they do fine.
Brent,

I have a funny story (well to me at least). I have bred blue jeans in a ten gallon tank with no misting system and only one bromeliad. The water was changed once a week at best. I tried a 29 gallon with a sort of rain chamber and about 15 film canisters. This was setup for about a year and a half and that didn't work. I switched them to the ten gallon setup about 3 months before I left my position at the animal lab and by the time I left (literally the week I left) they had successfully raised two tads to metamorphosis.
 

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andersonii85 said:
Brent,

I have a funny story (well to me at least). I have bred blue jeans in a ten gallon tank with no misting system and only one bromeliad. The water was changed once a week at best.
Oh yeah, that's just hilarious. Actually I've heard of other people breeding them in 10's also. No doubt it can be done. I've always felt that going up in size just ups the odds. Of course your freakish frogs would have to break the rules. When people ask what it takes to breed blue jeans, I've often joked that it takes $500 because once youve sunk that much money into a setup, they'll decide it's okay to breed. It's always fun to have frogs that keep us on our toes.
 

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rmelancon said:
There's a lot that is still unknown about these guys and I think if we want to continue to study or even enjoy them in captivity, an alternate food source can only be beneficial.
I don't worry about the experienced and dedicated froggers because they understand what it takes to maintain parental behaviors. For them, having an artificial diet could be a real benefit, especially for establishing lines in the hobby as mentioned before. But the thought of anyone being able to breed pumilio or grans as easily as auratus scares the crap out of me. I can't pretend I haven't dreamt about creating an artificial egg feeding diet myself, but such a powerful tool would require responsible use.
 
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